Thailand’s sex worker legal limbo - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

The killing of a 17-year-old teenage girl in the Thai city of Pattaya. has sparked a discussion in Thailand about how to make sex work safer. And Panisa, one suggestion is to make it legal. Yes, Mariko, despite Bangkok, Pattaya or Thailand is known as a sex paradise, it is in fact illegal to do prostitution in Thailand. However, it is estimated that over 100,000 people, or even more are making a living out of it. So we're asking whether or not the Thai government is interested.

in changing this law, or will sex work remain in a grey zone? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. And just to warn you, today we're talking about a murder case involving. a minor and also child exploitation. So please do take care while listening. In late June, a 17-year-old girl,Tunchanok Donhomla,

met a 45-year-old Australian man. in the early hours of the morning near the beach in Pattaya. It's a Thai coastal city well known for. its red light district as well as sex tourism. The pair struck up a conversation left together back. to his rented apartment, and within hours she was dead. Her body was found dumped in a suitcase near a railway track. The case has shocked many people in Thailand.

and back in Australia, where the accused is from, and it's highlighted the issue of safety. for the country's large number of sex workers. We want to look at whether the case might help build momentum to legalise. and regulate sex work in the country. I have our senior journalist. from the BBC Thai language service Panisa Aemocha, who is in Bangkok. Welcome back to Asia Specific, Panisa. Thank you for having me. I also have in Pattaya, Siromas Akrapongpanich, a child safety advocate.

from a nonprofit group called the Human Help Network. Siromas, thank you so much for coming on the pod. Nice to be here. Thank you very much for having me. If you can just explain to our viewers and listeners. what your organisation does. Firstly. Human Health Network Foundation Thailand, established in around 2008, our main goals are to give all the locals and children. the knowledge to stay away from the criminals.

and bad situations dealing with exploitation and human trafficking. And also the other approach is to give rehabilitation and development. for the victims who have already been traumatised in Pattaya. It's great to have you on the podcast. Thank you. Panisa, we're doing this podcast because of the murder of 17-year-old teenager. Tunchanok Donhomla in Pattaya, which is south of Bangkok. Can you just explain, tell us some of the details, what we know so far,

what the accused, as well as the family of the teenager have said so far. So this is the story of Tunchanok Donhomla or Cake in Thai. We like to call people by their nickname as well. She's a 17-year-old girl from Kalasin province. This is the province that located in the northeast of Thailand, and also one of the poorest areas in the country as well. June the 16th, it was when her family said that she arrived in Pattaya because she wanted,

and this is what I quote from the family, she wanted to see the sea for the first time. Then we fast forward, on June 25th, we saw a CCTV footage showing her walking. inside a residential area, holding hands with a foreigner. He was later identified as Simon Peter Carmen. That night we saw Carmen walking out of that condo, dragging a black suitcase, and he put that suitcase in the back of his motorbike.

When he returned from his activity that he did, he was there alone, without a suitcase. Police then pulled in all CCTV footages and then retraced the route. and found her body inside of that black suitcase along the railway track. The next day, June 27th, Carmen was arrested at Suvarnabhumi Airport. He was en route to take a flight back to Perth. in Australia. For Tunchanok, it's important that I said in the beginning that her family said.

that she was in Pattaya because of the sightseeing, but there's also alleges that she involved in sexual and prostitution. This is still not clear. The case is still ongoing and we're still waiting to see. what will come next with also with Carmen as well. What has he said so far when he was arrested? I understand he denied any wrongdoing. Is that right? Yes. Under questioning, at first, he denied any involvement. But then when presented and when challenged with evidence,

he then confessed that he strangled her out of. self-defence. He said that she threatened him. with a kitchen knife, and then he had to strangle her. And then there are also media reports about the argument. The fact that leads to this kind of escalation is because the arrangement. and the confirmations about the payment of the alleged sexual activity. Siromas, you're in Pattaya, where this horrific incident took place.

What was the reaction? I mean, the entire world saw that shocking news headline, and we've been talking about it quite extensively. But what was the reaction in Pattaya? Do things like this happen often? I would have to say that the crime against the sex workers here. in the area are happening quite on a regular basis, but for the case of murder by the foreigners, that's not something that we've seen that common before. Yeah. It's important to emphasise that her family says.

that she was there for a holiday and not for sex work, and he denies that. He says that it was self-defence. But I was surprised to learn that prostitution, or much of the business is involving in prostitution are actually illegal. So can you just explain how that happens? Because a lot of people know Pattaya and part of Bangkok. as almost kind of the sex tourism capitals of the world, or at least Asia.

There are many problems combined in this situation. The one thing is, I think it is like humiliating for the Thais to accept. that is the capital city of sex tourism, and I think it is too difficult for them to admit the facts. But still, when, you know, when these things happen, it just, there are, there are attempts by political parties or even the,

professors from the university trying to bring this topic up. And then what if it's about time that we put everything on the table and. seriously discuss about legalising the sex workers to prostitution? Because, you know, it is very, also very, very ironic for all the people to, think that this thing is illegal. But then the kids, the adults, they've seen them on the daily basis.

And it has somehow a part of our lives. Panisa, can you explain what is actually illegal? I was reading how running a brothel, for example, is illegal. And does that mean that police at least occasionally raid those places? So actually, the law itself, by and large, it is illegal to enter into prostitution. Whether or not you're the owner of the business, whether or not you're the seller or whether or not you're the buyers, everybody is like in the wrongdoing.

But if you go deep down into the law, there's so many criteria. For example, if a prostitute walking around. and not doing nothing, he or she is okay. But if he or she is trying to talk to customer and. then trying to sell the service, then that will step into the illegal zone. But all in all, this is illegal in Thailand. Why is it still happening? The first one is we have the law that condemn the people, right? But we have more of the weaker enforcement.

We're talking about the police, right? And last but not least, a demand and supply. Now with foreigners with higher purchasing power coming in, we're talking £10 might mean nothing to the foreigner, but £10 is equal to 400 Baht in Thailand, that minimum wage. And we have a lot of people who are from the poverty line who need to survive. Not only women, we're talking about any sex that can participate. and can gain money to survive.

Siromas, Panisa talked about the weak enforcement of these laws, in your view? Why is that? Is that because so many people rely on sex work in order to make a living? How many people are we talking about here? Because we don't have everything on the table. and openly discuss about this, so we do not have the exact numbers. of how many sex workers are there in Pattaya. But for the estimation, we think that maybe around during the peak season,

which is from around October to March, it should be around. at least 50,000 sex workers in the area. You know, that tourism contributes. as the second largest for GDP for Thailand. And every year it is roughly around 16 to 20%. And if I ask you, how many percent do you think that comes. from the sex tourism, of course,

still no idea, because we don't have any information about that. But you can see the picture much more clearer that. if you have everything discussed properly, if you have everything regulated, then of course you know how much the industry. And you'll be amazed. I'm just curious to know, Panisa, how do people in Thailand feel. about this sex work industry? You said it's pretty much in your face, even in Bangkok.

How do people feel about those sex workers? So I would argue that normal Thai people know, they know, they are well aware that this industry exists. And this is one of the reasons why a lot of NGOs are coming out. This is the work of spanning over 30 years. The law, the latest law that has been enacted, criminalised prostitution, has been enacted since 1996 and is still ongoing. And a lot of NGOs have been working really hard, working with the sex worker themselves,

telling the society why this needs to be decriminalised and why, apart from the fact that we condemn, if you actually go and look and read the law, it actually says something along the way of people who participate in this. have less mental capacity and less educated. So by the law itself is the condemnation. It doesn't protect people, it doesn't provide right. And I would say that a lot of Thai people, even though we are a Buddhist country, we have come to terms.

with reality that this is a way of living. And it will be better, right, to have the sex worker as a sex work. to have the proper right to make sure that we have. the law said that we cannot involve any minor. For you to register to be a sex worker doesn't build the draft. That suggests that it has to be 20 years old, and you have the right to decline the service if you do not feel comfortable. Siromas, can you maybe explain the benefits of legalising prostitution.

in Thailand. Would it actually make it safer? Because one could argue that there's not much law enforcement, even if it was legal, could do about them. Let me ask a very simple question. Is prostitution wrong? Well, it's happening. It's an industry, isn't it? And I guess. it's a matter of legitimising and recognising those workers who exist.

Yes. Because there are many discussion among the scholars. But I would say that for me personally, and I would say that prostitution itself is a kind of trade, is this you paying for certain kind of services? And then if that person willingly accept your money and willingly provide you. with the services, then there shouldn't be a problem. Nowadays it's still illegal. But how come the country that prostitution is illegal.

if famously known as the capital city of sex tourism? Within the 50 or 100m radius, you know, away from the school, away from the temple, away from the hospital, away from the nursery, there are brothels. There are, you know, there are bars. There are, you know, a local pub or anything like that. And how can minors, let's say that from three or four years of age, if they've seen that every single day, how can they differentiate between.

what should be the good in the society and what is not normal? And I guess by making it legal, if hypothetically, if a sex worker was raped, he or she could go to the police. without the fear of being punished or find, as you mentioned. Panisa, can you just explain, I understand there's a bit of a push to make it legal to change the law.

Can you explain the move and whether there's been any pushback so far? Thailand has about 40 millions of working age population, right? That can work and that can contribute to giving tax to the country. Half of it working in the formal industry, meaning. that the government have the work, they have registered for the tax. We can dive deep into the fact that out of 20 million, only about four million pay individual tax rate for personal tax.

We talking about 20 million people who live off the taxing system. And of course, sex work and this kind of grey industry fall into this category. So to legalise that, we are talking about potentials. of the government that be able to actually gain more tax revenue, potentially doing more of like, social net for people, for the safety net for them providing more social care for that. And then we go into the law, what has been happening?

So in the past 30 years we're talking about NGO trying to push for it. Actually, there has been a bill, the draft bill that has already finished under the former government. Right? But then before it can be submitted. to the parliament, the parliament got dissolved. So this draft bill has been hanging there. Nobody touch it now. But actually the timing is quite, imminent here. because just earlier, before this tragic incident happened,

we have another NGO is called the Swing Foundation, they actually submit a new draft to eliminate this 1996 law. and to make sure that we provide the right. and everything included for the sex worker. Now we're waiting for the political party and politicians to make sure. that the bill will become fruitful. Are you optimistic, Siromas, that given all the benefits that both you. and Panisa talked about of legalising sex work,

are you optimistic that the government may change the law this time? To be honest, not really, because, when it comes to legalising prostitution or the sex workers, I have to ask, who is going to get the benefits from the legislation. and who will lose their benefits from the legislation. These are the very serious topics that can be done decades ago, you know. During the Covid time in around 2021,

you know, thousands of sex workers would line up in the walking street area. waiting for free food given by the entrepreneurs of the bar because they. cannot, they are not entitled to the social or welfare, social security. The employers just say that they are freelancers, they work on a daily basis, but they cannot say that they are sex workers. So they cannot have access to any kind of medical treatment.

or any pension whatsoever. Have you ever asked about, okay, you work regular jobs during the daytime. and there are nurseries and daycare. What about the night care? Because from my own experience, I've seen that many sex workers, they bring their own children to their workplaces. And at the foundation, there are at least eight to ten children. who witnessed their parents offer sexual pleasure in front of the customers.

These are the things that have never been regulated, and it directly impacts the children. And you can imagine how demented or distorted reality can be. for this kind of kids. To be clear on this, legalising prostitution does not equal promoting prostitution. We just try to make everything that has been taboo.

by majority of the people in the society, and we seem to be too ignorant to accept the fact that we live in. in the country that there's a lot of negative, you know, images and it's about time that we have to put everything with courage. and openly discuss about this. And of course, not only with the voice from the NGOs, but also voice from the political parties and voice. from the government and voice from the all the scholars as well.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Siromas and Panisa. Thank you so much. My pleasure. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode.

See you next time.