Singapore has the world’s best passport. So what? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

We say that our green passport is like a sign of weakness. So we're kind of like ashamed if we're, like in a queue in immigration. And then we need to hide our passport. So. Oh no. So people don't see that we have green passport. It's a global ranking topped by Singapore. followed by South Korea and Japan. Neither the US nor China are in the top ten. Go back to. I mean, what's what's the hub of Asia? Singapore? Yes. Come on. That should have been pretty obvious. I mean, Singaporeans are the least. They have the least conflict.

Like, everyone loves Singaporeans, they have no drama. No, it's just like I know that the. The countries surrounding it, their passports are quite weak, like. Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Indonesian or Malaysian, it's not. So it's just funny. In recent years, those Asian countries have constantly been in the top three. But why do travellers from some countries have visa doors opening. to them, while others must struggle. with application paperwork and more restrictions? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service.

Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. Today I have Derek Cai from the Asia Specific podcast team. and also BBC reporter Famega Syavira, who's also a travel writer in Jakarta, and Derek has a Singaporean passport. While Famega holds an Indonesian passport, which is ranked at 68th. And I have a Japanese one, which is number three.

And for listeners who can't see us, I'm wearing bright red to represent my home country, but also Singapore, which has been my home for the last 20 years or so. Yes. Thank you very much, Mariko, for representing Singapore as well. Instead of you wearing red, you know as well. I'm not very patriotic, am I? Yeah, exactly. And let's start with how this is measured, because there are a number of rankings, and one of which actually puts the United Arab Emirates at the top. But we're talking about the Henley Passport Index,

which is, I guess, more widely recognised. So how do they measure whose passport is stronger than others? They measure... One of the metrics is how. many countries in the world allow the passport visa-free access. visa-free, e-visas, and visa on arrival. And I think Singapore has more than 190. countries that grants it visa-free access. Yeah, because I was looking at the index from two years ago. and Japan was number one, and then Singapore somehow overtook us.

So we'll talk about how you did that. Um. We're just better. Getting controversial in the first answer. Famega, as Derek said, this is about visa-free access. I guess when you hold a pretty powerful passport, you don't really realise it, but you holding an Indonesian passport, but also being a travel writer, have you actually experienced. have you had any examples where you felt like, wow, like my passport is not as powerful?

Back then I was traveling from Indonesia to Africa by land. So I didn't take any flight. So I have to go through all the countries. And one of the headaches that I have to think about. is how to manage the visa problem, because I have to make new visas for a lot of countries, unlike like you in Singapore or in Japan. So my road in this travel is heavily affected by.

how easily I can obtain a visa for the travel. So for example, like I can travel to South East Asia. South East Asian countries without visa. So I go through all these South East Asia... and then I go to China, I go to Mongolia. Both of them need visa. And then to cross the whole Asia I choose going to China. and then Russia because, you know, like Russia is huge. and I just need one visa. If I need to go to like for example, Central Asia,

I have to like obtain visa from each of the countries, and all of that is a headache for me. How did you get those? All the visas. Like, how long did it take you to actually obtain the visas. to be able to actually travel across Africa to write that book? Yeah. So I need to make Chinese visa and then Russian visa. and then Mongolian visa. And for Russian visa. It's very difficult because they only give me like exact amount of days.

and it's around 30 days. And you know, Russia is so big. So I have to like move very quickly. so I can cross the whole country in 30 days. Yeah. And then like for European visa, luckily I already applied for a Schengen visa multiple times. So they gave me a one year visa. But like my first Schengen visa is very difficult to get. I remember back then there is no... So nowadays they use like agent to take care of visa.

But back then I have to queue in front of the German embassy. Like queue in the heat for like one hour with, like, all my documents. and queuing so I can get permission to enter their country. So that's like, kind of like a humiliating experience for me. You know, you have to obtain, like, all these forms, then you have to submit your salary, your bank account, your proof of having property, and then you have to collect this, all of that paper in a very thick document,

and then you have to go there and submit and pay. like expensive money to get the visa. And then after that you have to wait for the decision. I remember having a Filipino colleague who I think was going. to the UK for work and then wanted to travel to France. and then had to get a letter from the BBC to, you know, as a, as a proof that he's actually got a job instead of just wanting to go in.

And, you know, I think the fear was that he would overstay the visa and stuff like that. Derek, why do you think compared to other South East Asian countries. like Indonesia or the Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia and so on, why? Why are Singaporeans allowed to visit so many countries visa free? So why our passport's so strong? Well, a couple of reasons. Singapore is a really small country. So over like... I mean we've built. really strong diplomatic ties with other countries. And so we allow them visa-free access into Singapore.

and they reciprocate that favour. It's also the fact that Singapore is so small. Our border is so secure. We are not that afraid of people coming into. Singapore and overstaying their welcome because it's easier... It's very easy to catch people who overstay their welcome in Singapore. It's so small. That, and also our economy is very strong. Our currency is strong, which means that countries that allow us to go. in visa-free, they are not that afraid. They're not worried that we will go there.

and overstay our welcome to find jobs there illegally, because we can just come back to Singapore and work. That, and also this perception that Singaporeans are very well behaved. and we are very rule abiding. So they're not that worried or concerned. that Singaporeans will go there and create trouble, I think. But, you know, all the reasons that you mentioned, they apply to the Japanese passport holders as well. But that's why I was wondering, like how you managed to overtake Japan in the last couple of years, you know,

because I think there are three or four countries that you can visit. without having to apply for a visa that I can't. And I really tried to look for an official reason for it. I couldn't find it. I don't know. Yeah, I can't answer that either, but I'm just picking up on what. Famega said just now. Did I hear you correctly? There are agents in Indonesia to help you apply for visas now. Is that a thing? Yeah. Now they have agency,

like where we should apply and we cannot apply to the embassy directly. We have to go to this agency and then apply. for a visa which like make it more expensive but also more efficient. because we don't have to queue in front of this embassy anymore. They have like nice office with aircon, but yeah, still like another process. I was looking at the ranking of other South East Asian countries. and I think Thailand ranks 63rd, so that's not that much better than Indonesia,

but Malaysia ranks the 10th. Do you know why that is? And how does that make you feel? Yeah. We see Malaysia as our competitor, like Indonesia and Malaysia is very close. in culture and also in we are very close to each other. We often compare to each other. So that's why like Malaysia position is much higher than Indonesia makes. like Indonesian feel very envious.

Also, I think it's because like all. of the factor that Derek mentioned before. But also there's a factor of diplomacy. that I think Indonesia is not really, doing good in that term. So they cannot have like bargaining power to make, you know, like relation with other countries that can give us free visa as with Malaysia.

I mean there's a lot of feud happening. in the internet between Malaysia and Indonesia. And that about visa is like, oh, we are feeling. like it's okay if like Singapore is like high above us. We know that like, Singapore is, you know, like very rich and different with Indonesia. But like Malaysia, we really take it personal. And we really like hope that Indonesia can get like, oh, we have to beat Malaysia. It's really interesting because,

you know, growing up in North East Asia, you know, I'm all familiar. with competition between China, South Korea and Japan. But yeah, I didn't realise there was a kind of a similar competition happening. in South East Asia as well. It's like sibling rivalry. Yeah. Sort of to that extent. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We have the same language and culture. We say that our green passport is like a sign of weakness. So we're kind of like ashamed if we like in a queue in immigration. And we need to hide our passport, so. Oh no.

So people don't see that we have green passport. Yeah. And I want to ask both of you, do you think, you know, we've been talking about how freely we can travel as a tourist, but do you think Famega, by being an Indonesian passport holder, has it affected, you know, maybe your ability to get a job or, you know, even once you get a job, you know, getting opportunities internally because, you know, within the BBC, maybe, you know, Derek can get into a country a lot easier.

and therefore you might actually miss out on opportunities. Have you have you had experiences like that? Oh, I was working in the American company before and then. when the headquarter invited us to go to the US, we have to apply for visa and it's not always approved, even though we are like working in an American company. So some of the people get rejected, so they cannot they cannot go there. And then they lost their opportunity to, you know, like.

in their career, to go there and, you know, have a meeting with people in the headquarter. And this also happens in the education sector, for example, like my friend who want to have an academic conference. in Europe, sometimes they get also rejected. So if you apply for visa. with all that document, you don't always get approved. So there's a possibility that your application get rejected. and some of this happen with my friends, like,

so she cannot go there and present her paper. in front of international audience, which will be very good. for her career in the academic field. So yeah, that I think can be a problem for us. in our career or education or like just travel. Do you think it benefited your career, Derek, by, you know, having that very strong passport because I feel like, you know,

being a Japanese passport holder, the cameraman that I know from Japan, you know, we can enter countries like Myanmar even visa free, which does give probably more opportunities than other journalists. who will have to go through a lot of paperwork to get the visa. Yeah, I think it definitely benefited me. My very first job as a journalist in Singapore, um, I'm not going to name the company, but when I was doing an interview, they did say that they were hiring not just Singaporeans,

but foreigners as well, but that my passport. and my citizenship is one of the reasons why they favoured me. because it's news, right? When news breaks, you have to travel to a country at a drop of a hat. But I feel also very privileged. because hearing all the stories Famega just said. I'm ashamed to say, you know, I'm 36. No, I'm 37 this year. I'm 37 this year. And this year was my first time.

experiencing what it was like to apply for a tourist visa. Where did you go to? India. Okay. Wow. Um. And it was my first time. I'm 37, and it's my first time applying for a tourism visa. I don't think I've actually, um, what am I now? I'm 44, and I've never had to apply for a tourist visa. I had to apply for like a journalist visa or business visa and so on. But yeah, I don't think I've ever had to apply for a tourist visa. But do you think Famega, do you think. people in Indonesia care about the power of passport?

Because obviously being able to travel like you did to Africa, it is something that, you know, not everyone can do. because obviously it costs quite a lot of money. So do you feel that ordinary Indonesian citizens do they? Are they bothered by the fact that your passport isn't very powerful? Yeah, I checked the amount of passports. that the government published since 2020. They published 16 million of passport. So that's really not much compared to our population,

280 million people. But even though people did not travel, it's always making news. And this ranking of passport, it always make news every year. Like, if Singapore get like better rank, we will know. because we saw it like as a, you know, this news is very interesting for us because we are so weak. Our passport is really weak and and we take it personally,

even though we don't necessarily need to go to travel or going to this country. But like we saw it as like, you know, like personal insult for us as an Indonesian, if we don't have, you know, we have to apply visa for these countries. I was reading that, though, that a lot. of Indonesians go to Saudi Arabia, don't they? And but I guess you still have to get a visa to visit Saudi Arabia as well.

Yeah, I think we need to have visa for. doing this religious activity like Umrah or Hajj. And I think a lot of people will have visa will have. will make passport just to go to Saudi Arabia. I want to caveat that Singapore does have the strongest passport, but I'm not sure whether I agree with all of the metrics. Yes, we can travel to a lot of different countries visa-free, but we also are not allowed dual citizenship.

So if you compare our our passport to say, a European passport, where you can, there's a lot more free travel between the Schengen region. and you can work wherever you want, but we can't. I think it will be great if we can have, like, system, like a Schengen passport, which can allow us to have to go anywhere in Asia, or at least South East Asia, to work and to travel? Yeah. I wonder if that was ever thought about like Asean. I guess Asean you have the visa-free travel.

Yeah, but we can't work anywhere we want within Asean. Yeah, we can travel visa-free into each other's countries. Yeah, because my husband is British. So when the kids were born, we used to joke, oh, you know, when they're at the age of 18, they have to choose between the Japanese and British passports. And when our eldest was born, it was before Brexit. So, you know, it was still kind of a while. the Japanese passport is stronger in terms of visa free access. when it comes to being able to work anywhere in the European Union,

you know, the British passport seemed a lot stronger. in terms of career opportunities. But then obviously Brexit happened. So now it's like, no question, it's the Japanese passport. I do wonder though, because I was looking at the US. and China and, you know, what's notable. is the declining strength of the American passport, while Chinese passport has been climbing rather quickly. So I think the US is no longer in the top ten, while China climbed from the 94th to 64th.

So it's still not, you know, Singapore, Japan level, but they have gained quite a lot of visa-free access. Do you think it's you know, you were talking earlier, Derek, about diplomacy and having ties with various countries. But do you think it's also about that economic power. And you know, that's why we're seeing Chinese passports gaining its strength quite a bit. 100%. Especially for China. Right? I mean, if you talk about diplomacy, they do economic diplomacy really well.

They invest a lot of money into countries in Africa. And I think a lot of that jump comes from countries in Africa. jump in passport... visa-free entry. But in terms of, the number of people who are affected by this, though, because Singapore does have quite a high percentage. of Singaporean citizens holding a passport, don't you? Because I guess it is a small country, as you said. But in Japan it's I think I was reading something like. only one in five or six citizens have a passport,

so it doesn't even actually matter whether our passport is strong. And I think it's partly because of. the various options that we have within Japan that you can just travel. and also the language barrier, you know, you won't. Not many people speak English fluently, so you know, they don't travel as much. But yeah, I do wonder, like how, while it does make news headlines in Indonesia. and Singapore and Japan as well in terms of like national pride and ego, in terms of the power of our passports,

you know, how much impact does this ranking actually have on, you know, individuals who who might not actually be travelling as much Famega. Even though people who don't have passport would like to have option. with this very weak passport. It's kind of like affected our dream to go somewhere. Mhm. Yeah. I mean speaking to you really makes me feel. like I should, you know, make the most of... Travel more? Yeah. My passport and travel more.

You guys are privileged. We are. Yeah. It really makes me feel like I should travel. You're travelling, aren't you, Derek? I am, I can plan ahead. You do plan ahead. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm a bargain hunter. Booking holidays way in advance. Exactly. We'll leave it there. Derek and Famega. Thank you for joining me on Asia Specific. And thank you for watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or comments on what we've covered in this episode,

I think we might get quite a few, or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below and click like and subscribe. so you never miss an episode. But until next time, see you!