Myanmar’s military-backed government seeks legitimacy - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

Remember Aung San Suu Kyi, democracy icon, Myanmar's ousted leader, political prisoner. Well, we've not seen her in more than five years. Until recently, when the military backed government. of Myanmar has released some new photographs of her. And, Jonathan, there's quite a lot going on with Myanmar at the moment. Yes, Mariko. I mean, the release of those photographs is not coincidental. In the same week when Min Aung Hlaing had this groundbreaking visit to Thailand, where relations were fully restored back to where they'd been before the coup.

Min Aung Hlaing is on a mission at the moment to win legitimacy. He held this much criticised election earlier in the year. He wants to be recognised as a civilian leader, and countries in the region are beginning to give him that recognition. But that really appalls the many Burmese who still oppose his regime, who argue that he's, in essence, still a military dictator, as he was right after the coup. And of course, the civil war is still very much ongoing, isn't it?

And there were reports of more than 400 killings in the first half of this year alone. So we're asking, is there an end in sight. to the bloodiest conflict of South East Asia? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. I have the BBC South East Asia correspondent, Jonathan Head.

Welcome back to Asia Specific, Jonathan. It's great to be back on the programme, Mariko. And Jonathan, you've introduced me to Thinzar Shunlei Yi. She's a Burmese pro-democracy activist based in Thailand. Thank you so much for joining me, Thinzar. Hello, thanks for having me. Thinzar, maybe you can introduce yourself to our audience, because I was reading your personal story of how you grew up. in a military family in Myanmar. But obviously you've been involved in activism for many years.

So can you just tell us your personal journey of how you got to where you are today? It's been such a very profound and interesting journey for me, myself. I was born and raised inside the military compound, and I lived there for more than 16 years. My father was a captain. Now he's retired, but I lived and went to school in the military compound, high school, middle school, went to the military hospital. Everything is all in our own empire that we don't have to, we didn't even have to talk to any civilian outside.

So I only got to talk to civilians only after I finished my high school. and I started attending a university for education. where I learned when I trained myself to be a high school teacher. So my family is very typical Burmese, Buddhist, you know, majority ethnicity family. So I had no idea about what was happening in the country. or how is life being a minority in the country? But it was only in the university where I learned about different stories. from different people and it totally shocked me.

And I also learned my privileges as being born into the military. I am not scared of the military men, you know, at least. And then also as a teacher, I was teaching a lot of orphans. in my free time and volunteering in a monastery school. And they were all orphans and they were all from the conflict affected zones. They don't even speak Burmese. And their life story also changed me. and started talking about civil war in the country and youth activism.

And then I started getting involved in youth policy development in the country, and all led to my current status as a human rights defender. So I try to define my own destiny so that my background cannot define me. And now, I'm trying to. do more for the people of Burma. What an extraordinary story. And I look forward to hearing your thoughts. on the ongoing conflict and so on. But, Jonathan, let's start with the diplomatic visit that took place earlier this month.

You have covered plenty of them, but this one was quite unusual, right? The president of Myanmar, Min Aung Hlaing visiting Thailand, he had the red carpet treatment, some events with business community, all of which are quite conventional diplomatic visit. But it's not because of who he is. Exactly. I mean, he's one of the most reviled figures in the world. Many people view him as a bloodstained dictator who has driven his country. into this catastrophic civil war through his pure ambition,

his decision to launch a coup out of the blue. after the previous government, led by Aung San Suu Kyi, had actually won a landslide election. So in effect, he's been an international pariah, while this very brutal military regime has established itself. Now, things have changed in the last year. He's doing better militarily. His forces are regaining a lot of ground. They lost to the armed opposition, which has broken out all over the country, largely thanks to backing from Russia and China that are giving him a lot.

of military support and other kinds of support in the country. But the South East Asian countries and Myanmar is a member of Asean. So it's sort of part of the club, have been keeping him at arm's length, because right after the coup, they summoned him and said, how do we fix this problem, this growing conflict? And he signed a consensus, a Five-Point Consensus, it's called, promising to de-escalate the violence and to negotiate with the opposition.

And the moment he got back, he then refused to do it. So the South East Asian countries have been saying, well, we can't re-engage. with you until you show some willingness to try to end this terrible civil war. And Thailand has now broken ranks. It has the longest border with Myanmar, which it argues with some justification, means it's got far more at stake in having a relationship. and that it needs to have contact with. with the governing body on the other side of the border. But ultimately, it's likely that other South East Asian countries will follow,

arguing that if the Myanmar military regime, as it is really, even having held an election earlier this year, is getting the full backing of China and of the other big neighbour, India, then ultimately South East Asia will have to accept. the reality that it runs Myanmar. But it has really given a big boost to Min Aung Hlaing's legitimacy. He was given the full royal treatment or the full welcome in Thailand. There was no reservation in the way that he was treated when he was here. Has the Thai government actually explained. why they decided to firstly invite him,

but also give him that red carpet treatment? Yeah, they they've argued that because of their border problems, a lot of problems spill over the Thai border. You've got transnational crime, you've got scam centres. on the other side, huge movements of people. And there are probably about four million Burmese living in Thailand now. Many of them are exiles like Thinzar who fled from military rule. There's a lot of other problems that Thailand argues it must talk.

to the government on the other side about, that other countries don't have that problem because they don't have a border with Myanmar. I mean, there is some understanding of that and that Thailand does need. to engage perhaps in a way that Singapore, for example, doesn't. But then a lot of the problems that the Thais say need to be discussed. are not even within the remit of the government in Naypyidaw, because the border areas are controlled by armed insurgent groups. who in many cases or warlords, for example, they're the ones actually involved in the scam centres.

They're the ones allowing the rare earths mines that are polluting Thai rivers. So in a way, the excuse they have to talk. to Min Aung Hlaing and give him this red carpet. welcome to to resolve these problems doesn't really hold up. because he doesn't have that much power to solve them. But that is Thailand's argument. Deep down, there are interests in Thailand, particularly the Thai military, which is very powerful and has. a strong relationship traditionally with the Burmese military and Thai. business that want the relationship back to normal as soon as possible.

And frankly, they don't really care about human rights. or the atrocities that have been committed by the Myanmar military. Thinzar, you've been quite vocal about this visit by Min Aung Hlaing to Thailand online. I was reading on your social media post this visit. You described it as "a criminal is allowed to walk. on Thailand's red carpet". Can you explain why you felt that way?

This has been such an emotional week for all of us. Especially for those who have been working on the situation in Myanmar. Especially when we thought of Min Aung Hlaing, he's now changed his uniform and rebrand his group as a government. and as the president, and he was marketing himself to the world that. Please invite me again. I'm someone. But then to us, he is a criminal because,

not because of what he was doing, but what he was responsible for. He's responsible for after the 2021 coup, also for the crimes that he committed before the coup as well. There was a Rohingya genocide since 2017, and way before that, there was also crimes committed by the military. the Tatmadaw, towards the other minorities, including Rohingya populations. He's wanted. His name in different human rights violation record. and documentation in the UN report and all of it.

So, um, we need to call a spade a spade, that he's a criminal. But the fact that he is welcomed by our neighbouring country, not just in Thailand, but he recently visited Laos, he recently visited India, Russia, China, definitely. But in Thailand, where most of us are living in, it's such a betrayal. I also want to talk about Aung San Suu Kyi, because just before this visit, the military backed government. of Myanmar released pictures, new photographs of her.

And, Jonathan, I know you described her. as possibly the most famous woman in Asia, but in case some of our younger listeners, viewers aren't familiar with. Why is she such a significant figure in Myanmar? Can you just maybe give us a brief history of who she is? Yeah. I mean, her life story is is extraordinary as well. I mean, she lived overseas for a long time. She's the daughter of a man called Aung San, who was the leader. of the Burmese independence movement, who fought for independence.

from Britain and should have led it to independence. But he was assassinated just before independence in 1948. Aung San Suu Kyi was a very, very young girl then. and later on, when she'd been living in UK. and she was married to a British academic and had a family in Britain. She came back to Myanmar to look after her ailing mother in 1988, and it happened to coincide with a major uprising against military rule.

The military had been running Myanmar and running it badly. in a very brutal way since the very early 1960s, and there was this huge uprising and a movement looking for a leader. And because of her famous family name, they adopted her. Now she's also, you know, she's overseas educated. She went to Oxford University. Um, you know, she's a very articulate, very striking person. with tremendous kind of poise and real charisma, a natural leader. And the other thing about her was that the military then put her under house arrest,

and she was under house arrest for 15 years, occasionally released. She always refused to compromise with them. and stood by the need for a proper democracy. So she became this incredibly potent symbol worldwide of somebody willing. to stand up for nonviolent advocation of democratic principles. And finally, in 2010, after the previous military government had held another election,

somewhat of an echo of what's just gone on this year, they released her and she led her party, the National League for democracy, to an astounding election victory, an absolutely sweeping victory in 2015, and then had another victory in 2020. It was possible she could change the Constitution, limit military power. The military had a lot of power under the constitution. They ousted her in a coup, and we haven't seen her at all in public since she was deposed. They've kept her strictly isolated.

She's now 81 years old. Her health is uncertain, but she still has this enormous iconic power. She's hugely respected. But we have just seen this photograph the military released, earlier this month of her meeting, the International Committee of the Red cross, a delegation. That's the first proof of life. her family or the wider world has had for more than two years. And there's no doubt that the Burmese military decided to show that.

because they I think the Thais insisted on it. Thailand wanted the visit of Min Aung Hlaing to be a success, but he couldn't have risked doing that if they couldn't be sure that Aung San Suu Kyi was still alive. That's interesting about the timing of the release of those photographs. Thinzar, earlier, you were talking about the Rohingya crisis, and I remember, at least internationally, Aung San Suu Kyi's reputation got damaged a bit when she was a leader. and didn't exactly address that Rohingya Muslim crisis.

What's your view on the lady. Jonathan describes as possibly the most famous in Asia? Yeah, she's remained a prominent figure in Myanmar, especially to the generations, especially in the political field. And I think to myself, she has made an important, impression to me when I was in, in the military that I look up to a. a woman leader where women sacrifice her life for the people. But later on, when we see a woman who has sacrificed her whole life.

and being jailed by the military again and again. for many different reasons over time. shouldn't be politics that we should aspire to. Now, the 2021 spring revolution is demanding, a profound, a better political system where we look beyond. the current 2008 political framework. democratic principles where we have a collective leadership.

not just based on a charismatic leader or person or an individual anymore. So, Aung San Suu Kyi was such a figure in my whole life. But then after the Rohingya crisis, I have faced a lot. of confusion and frustration. A lot of illusion in terms of moral leadership. When I was advocating myself with my friends and. all the civil society human rights defenders were advocating. for the Rohingya population, she was. defending the military at the very court in the ICJ in The Hague.

And that broke our heart. So, we save a lot of question to ask to her when she is released. She's not the only one who's been detained, detained in jail right now. And the military has been detaining more than 30,000 people. Many young people are there, and different political leaders. from different ethnic minority groups as well. And military has been releasing some and arresting more. It has been a trap. And then most of the Asean leaders.

were saying, oh, military released some political prisoner. But actually, no, they keep arresting more and more dissents. And they killed three of my colleagues, on the ground, as soon as they got them, they are arrested. So in a week we we we found the news that they they've been martyred. They've been martyred on the ground. So these kind of escalation of violence are happening in Myanmar. But I guess aside from her. You know, you've been involved in the opposition movement, but there's no-one to kind of replace her. Obviously, she's such a huge figure to replace.

But, you know, in terms of it's almost like. a leaderless movement that is taking place at the moment, is that the correct definition of it? Like, what's what's going on? Why haven't they been able to, you know, come up with someone else who can actually lead the movement? We want to go for a collective leadership. where every ethnic groups should be in equal positions. and equal space, equal participations. and the self-determination for all of us for a true, genuine federal.

democratic unions which is groundbreaking. It would take a long time, but it's on the way. How would you describe this conflict, Jonathan? I mean, the civil war has been going on for more than five years. Yeah. I mean, it was very interesting listening to Thinzar. talking about their aspirations. It's incredibly complex and Myanmar is a very complex country. It's a very large country, extremely diverse. There have been insurgencies going on pretty much since independence in 1948.

The central government has rarely been able to control its borders. There have been these ethnic armies. Some of them have been little more than warlords. Some of them have been involved in things like drug trafficking, human trafficking. Some of them are more idealistic. So that already existed long before the coup. Then on top of that, the young people who rose up against the coup. in a non-violent protest movement broadly called the CDM, the Civil Disobedience Movement, once that was crushed.

with extreme brutality by the military, making it clear they wouldn't tolerate any peaceful dissent at all. Those young people had to flee to avoid arrest, and decided many of them that we've got no choice, we've got to take up arms. And some of them fled to the border areas. to join up with these ethnic armies. And they have different views about their interests. It's extremely fragmented over the whole country. Each conflict has its own dynamic. It's almost impossible to follow.

So almost by definition, you can't have a united front, a united leadership to resist the military. Yeah. When Jonathan was describing the situation in Myanmar, I was thinking about my childhood where I grew up in the military compound. The military and the people around me used to tell me, Myanmar's situation are really complex, it's really fragmented. Like there are a lot of insurgencies. There are a lot of rebels, you know, fighting against their very own army.

So we have to defend ourselves. The Myanmar needs the military the most because there are a lot of insurgencies. and a lot of bad people. You know, like I grew up with all of these. Myanmar is so militarised society where they're looking at a strong leadership. So they don't want to look at women as a leader, and they don't want to look. at other different ethnic leaders from different backgrounds, different religions to be their leader. So I think deep down, this is a true root cause of all the problems.

Like for example, in India, it's. very diverse, cultural wise, religious wise. But if they can do it, make it through, you know, the whole independence time after the post-colonial period. into where they are right now, we can do it, you know, and I think what's missing and the gap in our history is, we never had a proper nation building process, we never asked for people's consent. It's a very basic political mindset. We need to ask consent from our ethnic minorities and.

our other other different ethnic people, but the military never did it. Military is always insecure about everything. Jonathan, you mentioned China a number of times. Beijing wasn't too happy, was it, when that coup took place? But as you described now they seem to side with the military government. So can you maybe explain the role that China plays? And also, you know, the rest of South East Asia, because.

those countries have been trying to stop this fighting, this killing for quite some time. In an ideal world, they would prefer the coup not to have happened. China had perfectly good relations with Aung San Suu Kyi's government. It's a very big neighbour sharing a long border. It's inevitable that China's influence will be big. It is interesting seeing how China has changed. China's fundamental concern is its own interests. Myanmar is a very strategic position. It has a lot of resources and natural resources, a lot of rare earths, for example.

It's also China's gateway to the Indian Ocean, the Bay of Bengal. China has built an energy pipeline down to a port there. So I think in the end, China's calculation as this conflict went on. was, we need to back one side or the other. And they've chosen the military, perhaps because they're easier to deal with. because they are, clearly they've got more clear leadership. Thinzar makes a very good point, that the military has all these arguments for monopolising power,

but the military has been running Myanmar apart. from the ten-year interlude where there's democracy, since 1962, and it's done it absolutely disastrously, not just for the extraordinary brutality and violence, but also the economy. And so I understand why younger people like Thinzar will continue to fight. Thinzar you said you're still quite hopeful, despite the visit of Min Aung Hlaing to Thailand, even though it almost feels like Myanmar is turning.

from this junta military government to, you know, a potentially a member of the international. or at least regional community that can be accepted by Asean. How do you stay so hopeful? How does this all of these latest development make you feel? All of these ethnic minorities have been resisting the military. for more than seven decades, seven decades, you know, with or without proper popular support. They they made it through. They didn't surrender to the military.

And they have that consistency, perseverance, and they have that bravery and courage. These are the elements that gave me hope that, okay, we all can do it. Now the many Myanmar young people are joining. these ethnic revolutionary groups because they feel like now. it's time that they defend themselves and they define their own destiny. So, Jonathan, we've been talking a lot. about the accusations, criticism against the the Burmese government. What does the military backed government say about all these criticisms.

Well, it's surprising how open they are. I mean, I interviewed a senior general who'd been the commander. of the northern region during the election campaign in Mandalay, and I asked him, why do you bomb schools and hospitals? Now, I expected him to deny it or say it's accidental. It's not deliberate. You know, it's war. This happens. He didn't deny it. He said, because they are terrorists. They're in terrorist areas. They're really unapologetic about what they do to people.

They don't hold it back. They actually want people to know. they're willing to use extraordinary levels of brutality to crush people. Everything Thinzar says about the military, she's right. It's it's a unique organisation with this tremendous sense of entitlement. that because it believes it's holding the country together, that any amount of force is justified and. that any scale of human consequences can be tolerated. And I really understand why, you know, young people have said.

We've had enough. We can't even compromise. We have to get them out of politics altogether. As Thinzar was saying the military is isolated. They're very resentful of the international pressure. they've been put under to make concessions on the civil war. But the civil war is having huge, almost catastrophic human consequences. So it's not good for Myanmar that it carries on. It's always great to have you back on the pod, Jonathan. And Thinzar, it was so insightful to hear your story.

Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks, Mariko. Such an important issue this. Thank you for having me. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.