Kim Ju Ae: The daughter who could rule North Korea - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

This makes him look like a doting, loving father, and it softens his image with the populace. And, you know, having having watched those videos. myself, you know, I think it's pretty effective. It is an image that they're trying to sell. It doesn't really reflect the reality. And a lot of the stuff we hear from former North Korean officials, it is quite a bit of a horror house in in the North Korean government. The daughter of the North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, Kim Ju Ae was first introduced to the world in 2022.

But in recent months she's been in the public eye more frequently, either in official state media or at high profile events. So is she being positioned as the country's first female leader, or is there another strategy at play? I'm Mariko Oi in Singapore and this is Asia Specific. from the BBC World Service. twice a week.

We bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have our Korea correspondent, Jake Kwon in Seoul. I also have Rupert Wingfield-Hayes. He's a former Asia correspondent. for the BBC who was detained by the Kim regime for about three days in 2016. Welcome, both. Let's start with you, Jake, and tell me what we know about the daughter of Kim Jong Un. Because we look up how old she is, even how old Kim Jong Un is.

And there's no kind of verified source on it, is there? No, no, best we understand is that she was born in 2013, so that should make her about 13 years of age. And if you look at the latest images of her on North Korean state media, she is finally surpassed her father in terms of the height, she really looks like she's hitting the growth spurt and. she looks a lot like her own mother. And she usually appears in leather coat, sunglasses or designer blouses,

which is, you know, probably out of reach for most North Koreans. And she's wearing her hair long, which is forbidden for most young women in North Korea. So she really is someone special. And the more and more we see of her, the more and more she is taking a center stage. right beside her father, which is quite extraordinary. And what do you make of this Rupert? Is she groomed to succeed Kim Jong un? Yeah. I mean, I'd be really interested to know what Jake thinks about this. in terms of North Korea being not just a family regime.

It's also an extremely chauvinist, uh, ideology. And so the idea of a woman running North Korea. is at odds with what you would expect. And so the fact that Kim Jong Un's daughter appears to be taking. such a prominent role and and being groomed for succession. strikes a lot of people as rather odd because it has been reported, although never confirmed, that he has an older son born in 2010. and perhaps a third child, born in 2017,

may also be a boy. Again, we just don't know. This is the most secretive family and society on earth in many ways. But if there is a boy in the background, a lot of people think that at some stage that boy will come out in the open, and it's much more likely that there will be a boy succeed him. Keeping the Kim family name. It's it's really hard to understate. how secretive this family is and how much of a taboo inside North Korea. You can get killed for mentioning some of the details of the Kim family. Like, you know, who was the Kim Jong Un's mother?

Uh, how old is Kim Jong Un? And. And had Kim Jong Un's father have any other wives? I mean, these are all considered very much a secret. It's kind of funny how we even found out about Kim Ju Ae. through Dennis Rodman, who was the NBA star. right after he visited Pyongyang and played, you know, some basketball game in front of the dictator. So it really shows how little we actually know. And each time we talk about North Korea, how much. we are kind of engaging in tea leaf reading here, a lot of our information is through, uh, rumours.

and watching what we can see that North Korea decided to reveal to us. Yeah, it was actually recently talking to a North Korean defector, a woman. who said that she couldn't possibly imagine a woman ever ruling North Korea. But if it is not to succeed Kim Jong UN, how should we read, You know why this teenager basically is hanging out at very high profile events. This makes him look like a doting, loving father,

and it softens his image with the populace. And, you know, having having watched those videos. myself, you know, I think it's pretty effective. He does look like a doting, loving father. She's an attractive young woman. Uh, and I think for, you know, for the Kim family image, which is really a sort of royal family, if you think of the British royal family and how much good. the the children of of William and Catherine, for example, do for the British royal family, then having his daughter at his side, certainly.

I think, you know, just enhances that, that image of them. as this perfect family. No, I gotta agree. I mean, a lot of what we see is what North Korea wants to put out there. A lot of this is personality cult and image making. And I think Kim Jong un, as soon as he debuted on the stage, he really wanted to sell this image of a father. Uh, he tried to almost model himself after his own grandfather, who is still revered inside North Korea. You see it in his hairstyle. You see it in his fashion. You know, a lot of this.

Like I said, it is it is an image that they're trying to sell. It doesn't really reflect the reality. And a lot of the stuff we hear from former North Korean officials, it is quite a bit of a horror house. Uh in the North Korean government, um, you know, Kim Jong Un, from what is described is a very, uh, he likes to throw tantrums. Uh, he is quite arbitrary. And there's a there's a reign of terror going on inside Pyongyang. But at least what we see on the television is one of.

a very loving and benevolent guy. Yeah. We tried to contact a North Korea's embassy here in Singapore. asking for a comment and a response for this podcast. As we've all been saying, it's really hard. to get information directly from Pyongyang. But on the record, state media has previously described defectors. as traitors and human scum. Also, the country's ambassador to the United Nations, Kim Song, last year responded to claims by defectors of widespread repression,

describing those claims as a burlesque of intrigue and fabrication. And this defector that I spoke to, she also said she remembered that day. when Kim Jong UN came to power. I think he was only 27. That was in 2011. And she said the North Korean public thought he really reminded everyone. of his grandfather, and people just were hopeful. that maybe he would be less severe, less harsh than his father.

But of course, it hasn't really been the case. And, Rupert, I want you to share your personal experience. because you were detained there for three days, and it must have been. quite terrifying experience, if you don't mind sharing with the audience. Yeah. I was detained at Pyongyang International Airport while, uh, at the end of a of a ten day trip to a reporting trip to the country. where we had been following a group of Nobel laureates. and on a lecture tour to universities in the North Korean capital.

And I was then detained and interrogated overnight, and I was accused of insulting the North Korean regime, and they threatened to put me on trial. Um, and, you know, I think largely. through luck of working for a large news organization and also that. the the Korean Workers Party Congress was about to happen the next week. I was, after three days, expelled from the country and not put on trial. But it wasn't absolutely, at the time, terrifying experience. And so, you know, you had that feeling that, well, I could just disappear for months.

That didn't happen to me. But it certainly gives you a sense. of how powerless the individual is in the face of such an absolutist regime. Jake. The number of defectors from North Korea. to South Korea has actually fallen, hasn't it? So can you tell us why that is? Does that mean that people are actually more satisfied with the Kim's regime. and how things are within the country? I think it is safer to assume that it's not through the lack of will, but a strengthening of the border between China.

This is where most of the North Korean people escape. They go north towards the Chinese border, which is a lot more porous, and then they go through China to get a better job and better opportunity. A lot of these people leave North Korea for. for economic reasons, really primarily. Uh, and then some of them decide to move all the way down to South Korea, where, you know, people speak the same language. They're not being hunted by Chinese police officers. Uh, and they are essentially as soon as they walk into South Korea, they're given South Korean citizenship and passport.

What we understand about kind of how things are inside North Korea. is through these people telling us what their life is like there. Recently, there was a kind of testimony, a memoir from a former North Korean diplomat, and there's a whole chapter in his memoir, and it just tells one after another, uh, one official after another, getting executed by anti-aircraft guns. And their body is not even recognizable after the killing. And and how this is done in a very public fashion.

They bring out all the the North Korean officials. to witness this killing as to, to kind of drive fear into them. And in terms of the lower levels, uh, you know, there has been a lot more control over what they can see and hear, uh, the law around sharing and distributing South Korean movies. and TV shows have really tightened to the point, uh, that distribution can be can be punished by death. What do you make of this increasing number of punishment,

of watching, sharing foreign entertainment? Foreign content? Does it reflect the regime's insecurity or confidence? It's a really difficult question to to get right, I think, because, you know, when I've interviewed defectors in the past, both in South Korea and in China, one thing is clear is that I remember one defector saying to me, we all we all know that South Korea is a lot richer than North Korea. What really upsets people in North Korea is we know now.

people in China live much better than we do. And so it's not like there isn't knowledge of the outside world. But there is, I think, also a sense that if everybody. in North Korea has access to the internet and the outside world, and I've seen the way the internet works in North Korea, and it's not an internet, it is an intranet where information is. very, very tightly controlled only to the top tier of society. Then that absolutely suggests to me that they they believe. that if if there was real free access to information,

that it would be a threat to the regime. It has to be that when I remember interviewing defectors back in 2016, uh, you know, they told stories of what life had been like. during Kim Jong Il's time at the end of the Kim Jong IL regime. So, Kim Jong Un's father, where things have been pretty loose. and where trade with China had grown dramatically, and how this whole private economy had grown up in North Korea. And where, you know, there was a I remember. one person telling me about the, you know, the currency,

the currency of choice instead of cash was Choco pies, which they would go to China and get Choco pies and use them. on the black market, which is a, which is a type of chocolate cake. And and I was amazed people told me about going to the border with China. and using a mobile phone. with a SIM card from China to call their relatives in South Korea. And I was absolutely astonished that this sort of, uh, freedom existed. Uh, you know, below the, below the, the official level, uh,

in North Korea. But I wonder whether this is actually a reaction against that. That's, you know, Kim Jong UN saw the loosening of society. and like many authoritarian regimes, thought if this goes on further, this movement across the border, these mobile phone cards coming. into North Korea, the amount of trade that's going on freely with China, whether this ultimately will be a threat to the regime. And that's why we have seen this hardening of attitudes.

and punishments for all sorts of infringements of official policy. Rupert, you and I covered the various Trump-Kim summit. in Singapore, Hanoi and DMZ. I might have got the order wrong, but also there was that summit. between Moon Jae-in and Kim Jong Un at the border between the two countries. And at one point, Kim Jong Un seems quite eager to open up. to building relationship with the rest of the world. But now he's gone all cold again.

So can you remind our audience what happened in that kind. of shift in his attitude? Yeah. I mean, I think when you when you think of North Korean regime's attitude. to the outside world, you've also got to think of. the Korean peninsula's geographic location and the history. And the fact is, the Korean Peninsula is jammed between China and Japan. and has historically always felt squeezed by those two Asiatic powers.

and has had to balance relations, always needing to have good relations with China, but always wanting to have also another power outside. to balance that dependence on China. And I think what Kim Jong Un saw Donald Trump as, as is. as a potential alternative sponsor, an alternative balance for Beijing. so that he wouldn't have to be so overly dependent. on Beijing, which he clearly doesn't like. Uh, and, and I think he, you know, genuinely wanted to negotiate some sort.

of recognition from the United States and some sort of at least detente. with the United States and perhaps some investment and greater aid and. and you know, the point at which it all failed. You were there. I wasn't, um, I was in Singapore. I wasn't allowed to Hanoi because of my previous history. with with North Korea, um, that it all fell apart, um, and that, you know, and it came down to it, the North Korea was not going to give up its nuclear weapons. That's an absolute baseline. I think North Korea is never going to give up its nuclear weapons,

as long as that state exists and the Kim dynasty exists. I mean, if you look at Hanoi, the collapse of that summit and. all we understand is that, uh, this is probably the most traumatic event. in Kim Jong UN's life when he when he goes to sleep, you know, he probably kicks his his blanket thinking about that moment. I mean, him going to Hanoi was a huge gamble on its own. There was a lot of advertising going on internally. Uh, you know, you look at the state media, they all talk.

about what a great kind of travel, that trip that Kim is going to go, and then he's going to win something big from the US leader. And then when that collapses, all of that coverage just suddenly disappears. You know, he he makes his way back, uh, with his tail between his legs. And, you know, that long train ride back to Pyongyang. was probably a very humiliating one. And, you know, we saw a lot of officials who were arranging, uh, this negotiation with Trump has gone missing. since then, and we don't know what happened to them.

Uh, very most likely that they were purged, uh, you know, scapegoated for this failure. And so for, for Kim Jong Un to really stick out his neck again, there has to be something really concrete, uh, something really promising there. And we know what we what he probably wants, which is to recognize that he's a nuclear state, that he can, you know, someone telling him a US leader, Donald Trump. telling him that, you know, we recognize that you are a nuclear power. You can keep your nukes. And we will also lift your sanctions and we'll bring you back into our fold.

And maybe we'll sign a peace treaty. Jake, what about the role of South Korea? Because under the current president, president Lee, he's taking a friendlier approach towards Pyongyang. He's considering, for example, easing access for South Korean public. to read North Korea's only newspaper, Rodong Shimbun. Given Pyongyang has gone all cold towards South Korea, how should we read this contrast? Well, right now, as far as we know, there is no relationship whatsoever.

North Korea has sworn off any communication with the South. We heard Kim Jong UN saying that South Korea is. just another country that we're engaged in war with. There is no reunification with the South. Uh, don't think of them as compatriots. Even though, you know, 70 years ago this was one country. And, you know, for South Korean people, South Korean government. Of course, there's a lot of willingness to engage North, uh, with current administration. Um, but there just simply isn't many options.

The new president, Lee Jae Myung, described it. as a needle size hole, actually smaller. than a needle sized hole for any maneuvering to engage the north. I think there's actually a very big kind of risk. in engaging north and going all in here, because his predecessor, Moon Jae-in, really went all in. with his all his political chips in North Korean relationship. And when that failed, that caused him his government. You know, the next president was not from the same party. And a lot of people attribute that loss to the failure of North Korea policy.

So the new president, Lee Jae myung, he doesn't want to stake his political capital on this. So his messaging has been pretty clear that, you know, any kind. of breakthrough with North Korea has kind of come from Washington. As we've been talking about it. It is. The country is full of mystery. It's just all speculation. But if you have that crystal ball, I just want to ask. what could be next for North Korea? Could we see more surprises? Could we actually see that?

15 13, 14 who knows-. year-old teenage daughter one day running North Korea? I defer to Jake's greater knowledge of Korean culture than mine, but I would say my gut feeling is no. I mean, I think the one, the one chance. of her becoming the supreme leader of North Korea is if she is the only child. You know, if if Kim Jong Un only has one daughter. and doesn't have any other children, then she's I guess, the only option.

But if there is a son, if that is maybe only eight. or nine years old, who born in 2017, or another son that we don't know about, uh, then I think. in the future we're going to see that that that boy emerge onto the stage. Rupert is right. I mean, when when whenever we report on North Korea, I think a clear rule. about reporting on North Korea is never make a certain statement, because we are all kind of reading the tea leaves. and we we can say like, oh, this is going to happen. And then next moment tomorrow we can see, you know,

maybe Kim Jong-Il will be declared the heir. As far as we understand, it's a deeply, deeply sexist society. Uh, women are considered beneath men there. Uh, and, you know, even though she is part of what they call the Paektu bloodline, that she is a direct descendant of their founder, Kim Il Sung, and this is a huge capital behind her. Uh, a lot of the North Korean watchers that I speak to, they're quite, uh, you know, uncertain. I think it really comes, like about 50-50.

Uh, some people do think that she has a chance. Some people think. that there's just no way. But I think the reason we're. So this is such a big area of speculation, this is what, you know, a lot of North Korean watchers are, are fascinated uh, with is because I think a lot of people are asking whether, you know, when she ascends to the throne, can that signal some kind of change. for the North Korean society to have a woman on as as a leader? Uh, will that signal some kind of openness.

of society, openness of North Korean political system? And but, you know, to be honest, seeing her inspecting the troops. alongside her father, wearing leather coat and sunglasses. and looking a little bored by all these politics. Perhaps not. Well, 50-50. I guess that's as good as it gets when it comes to speculating on North Korea. Even both of you had that crystal ball. Thank you so much for sharing your insights, Jake and Rupert. Thank you. Thank you very much for having us.

You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we've covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email Asia-Pacific at bbc.co.uk. And you know the drill. Click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.