Is India’s internet becoming more like China’s? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

The world's two population giants, India and China, have long taken vastly different paths in how they manage their internet. But is that gap starting to close? In India, new regulatory proposals aim to bring social media commentators, as well as independent bloggers, under the same strict rules. that traditional TV stations must abide by. The Indian government says online platforms must be accountable, but influencers fear the space for free political speech is shrinking.

Is the world's biggest democracy taking a leaf. out of China's digital playbook? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have Umang Poddar. He's a legal reporter for BBC Hindi, based in Delhi. I also have Tom Nunlist. He's the associate director at Trivium China, based in Shanghai.

Welcome both. Thank you. Great to be here. Thank you for having me, Mariko. Umang, can I just get you to firstly explain exactly what changes are being proposed. when it comes to India's internet regulations? Right. So the Indian government last month proposed a set of changes. to this framework called the IT rules, which essentially controls. what all information users can see on the internet. There are two changes which has alarmed critics. The first change is that they have said.

that the government now can issue directives, can issue advisories, and they have to be followed by all these intermediaries, which essentially is all your social media companies, your search engines. So like one concern in that is. that now this will be outside the legislative process. So the government can make these rules. and the companies will have to follow that. So that's one. But the second and the more concerning change is, so in these set of rules also the government had something called the code. of ethics, which is essentially like,

which is essentially principles which news publishers have to follow online. So things like, for instance, you have to have impartiality. and a lot of other things which, say news organizations follow, those had been codified in that. So what the latest set. of changes have done is they've extended those same set of guidelines. to even individual users who post on the internet. So for instance, tomorrow, if I wasn't a journalist and I just go on Twitter, and if I post something which is related to.

to an issue which can be categorised as news and current affairs, then on the basis of these rules, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. in India would have the power to look into that. And they have a set of measures which they can take. For instance, they can ask me to, like tweak something in. that they can also ask me to take that down. So these also had raised a huge set of concerns and people had gone to court. And the court also had stayed a couple of these provisions. And they had said that they had serious concerns. about how this would affect freedom of speech. So while like in some cases, the courts have expressed concerns about freedom.

of speech and how like these rules are going to like regulate the internet, and they have struck down what the government has done or has put them, put them on hold. They have also been like a couple of instances, especially in the cases which X have filed, where the court where. a high court in the southern state of India has upheld those actions. So, for instance, the court has said that, okay, the government can ask, say, a social media intermediary to take down a user's account completely. as opposed to like taking down a couple of their posts.

And for that, it's okay if they only tell like the intermediary. that this post, this account has to be taken down. So that's something which they have said that doesn't like fall, doesn't fall foul of the freedom of speech. and expression guaranteed in the Indian Constitution. So Tom, how does this compare with China? Because it's quite widely known about China's censorship. Are there any parallels to what's happening in India. with what's been going on in China? Yeah, there absolutely some interesting parallels here.

I would say, you know, just first off, the biggest difference here is. how much longer that, you know, media and information, you know, control system has been in place in China. and just how like strong and like, well, that operates. Right? So we're really looking at, you know, somewhere starting it somewhere. it's been a very long time. I think there's three important aspects to kind of point out. about this, you know, building on what you said, talking about how the government interacts with media companies,

with online information and then with individuals. So in China, for media companies, if you want to be a media. or do journalism, you absolutely have to have a license to do that. And like, it's very tightly managed by the state. in a quite a hands on way, you know, in terms of. the censorship authorities sort of like giving directives or advice. on, you know, what can and can't be covered. And then of course, loads of kind of, you know, informal.

or semi-formal rules. On the online environment, which is maybe not necessarily just news. Of course, anything that's on social media, the government works very closely with the online platforms. and has again, built this system. over a number of years to where effectively platforms are, in a way, can be thought of as like an extension of the regulator. So especially in the past couple of years, a lot. of the sort of like daily kind of media monitoring,

media management duties have been moved over to those platforms. Again, there's a very, like, hands on fluid relationship. where they're talking to authorities at all times, but also have their own ways to implement and interpret the rules, you know, about what is on their platforms and you know, how that works. So like when individuals are kind of online, that's who they're really interacting with more, thinking about, you know, who is, like, running these platforms. That's who would decide to, you know, take down a post or ban them or so on.

I guess it's important to emphasise that India's internet remains. a lot freer compared to that of China. But since Prime Minister Narendra Modi came to power, there have been quite a bit of changes to media laws. So can you just paint us, I guess the bigger picture, not just these latest regulations or changes that they're proposing? So a couple of things like similar to like. what even Tom was saying, like the set of changes we were talking about. is the changes which are under the intermediary rules.

So therefore, the government has, the government, like regularly talks to intermediaries, and it's on intermediaries to take like a lot of this information down. So all these rules which we are talking about, were brought in 2021, which is seven years into the government. So before that also, there were like certain, there were. certain laws which were there. For instance, there was this law in India. like IT act, which said. that if there's any offensive post, then somebody can be put in jail. But that was challenged, and the Supreme Court struck it down in 2015,

saying that you have to have a judicial process. to determine what is offensive or not or what is not offensive. And then you can determine whether somebody should be punished or not. So those kind of rules were still there even before the 2014 government. But what we are seeing after that is a there has been a very sharp increase. in numbers of the government asking intermediaries to take posts down. And second is like when you are talking about these 2021 rules. So in that, like many things were changed, for instance, like first there was this provision of traceability brought in.

So for instance, like it was said that if you're a messaging companies, for instance, if there's a WhatsApp, then they have. to be able to like trace where the message originated from. So that's something which WhatsApp had a huge problem with. And they also had gone to court. And that case is still pending. One key thing, you know, just sort of to respond. to it is, you know, a few moments ago, Umang, you know, mentioned this this thing of traceability. And I think that's like a really interesting technical parallel. to like what's going on in China where like this, the traceability of,

of information online has been a huge deal with the government. and it's created a lot of requirements, you know, again, on platform companies to make sure that they know like where, where did the rumor originate? Where did this come from? Like we want to find out if this is this random from people. Is it something that's been planted by foreign governments? And then, you know, maybe I don't know how much India is moving. towards this system now or if it will in the future. But a big thing in the past few years is really enforcing. what's called real name registration in China.

So, you know, if I sign up, you know, to have a social media account on a China Chinese platform, I have to sign up for that with my name and ID. And, you know, there's like no such thing as like you posting online as, as an anonymous person. So as you say, so many changes. But what is the rationale cited by. the Indian government for making all these changes? Right. So what the government says is that as technology is growing, one, the speed at which information is shared between like say,

two parties is something which is extremely fast. So therefore, that's how they're justifying that. the shortening of the window to take down content on the internet. They are saying has to be like really short because otherwise the post becomes viral. And then there's only so much the government can do after. it's become viral. So that's one thing which they are saying. And the second thing which they're saying is that true? Because of the because of say things like artificial intelligence, there's also a lot of, say, non-consensual.

sexually explicit photos and videos that are being made. So that's also something which the government is saying. that they are trying to tackle. And apart from that, there have also been, like all this were also brought in the backdrop of, say, around like 2018, 2019. There were many instances where, say, fake news on WhatsApp had led. to violence in certain places. So therefore, the government is saying that there's all like. the the propensity of fake news also is increasing. And there are also like on ground effects of something like this. So therefore they have to like tighten the control.

on how information is shared. But there's one thing like a lot of like, experts point out that these things, which the government is saying that. the rationale to control these things is something which is legitimate. because these are issues right now which say any government would have to tackle. And, Tom, there was a time when, you know, sites like Facebook, YouTube were available, even though for a brief period of time in China. So can you just explain what happened, how that changed? Essentially, as soon as the internet became a thing.

in the 90s or not long after it, you know, the government sought to control what was on there for, you know, basically the legacy reasons of why I would want to control. what's in the the newspaper, right? So there was a few years, a few Wild West years. in the 90s where there were basically no rules, you know, but the government very quickly, you know, started responding to this. And then, you know, kind of like slowly built out the system. over a, you know, a long period of time, kind of to what it is these days.

As you mentioned, there was a short period, a few years where Google was available here. It was in the, the mid to late 2000, YouTube as well. But it's really interesting because in some ways, as you know, Umang was saying that the government is responding to real challenges, you know, even if these challenges, you know, are maybe we would say, being used as an excuse or, or abused by the government, you know, for, for its own ends. But I think in a lot of ways,

you know, the Chinese government was prescient in understanding. that there would be these issues on the internet. And of course, it has its own, you know, ideals of. of censorship control more broadly. But, you know, back in the 90s when Bill Clinton was saying, oh, controlling the internet is like, you know, nailing jello to the wall, China was saying, we don't think so. And, you know, starting to build out like these tools over time. And so, looking back to the way that it, you know,

in the early days of how the government was looking. at this system and trying to figure out what to do about it. Again, it almost seems a little bit prescient. that this would be something that is difficult control to control, that you would want to control again, for reasons that you may or may not agree with or, or a mixed bag of reasons. And so it's now ended up with. a system where again, you have like, countries like India. or even the EU and the US, you know, grappling with these challenges.

in ways that feel parallel or are kind of are parallel to China. And I think it's kind of a natural outgrowth of, you know, I mean, it just it is a real challenge you have to deal with in some way. China just happened to be on that ball. or recognise that a little bit earlier than other countries. But I've always wondered, how do people feel about censorship. or changes in these regulations? Let's start with you, Umang.

In India, how do people feel about what's been the reaction. to these latest changes? Well, it depends. I would say like it's slightly in terms of like, they're always like people who support what the government does. and people who would, like, oppose what the government does. But like a very big concern, which a lot of people have expressed, is how like this internet might not like, become, how the internet would not like, remain a free place, which, like a lot of people, conceptualise the internet to be. Apart from that, like people in the industry also have expressed some concern about.

Because with all these things about like having like increased takedowns. or like whenever the government passes a new law that you have to comply. It also increases the, It also increases the due diligence which these intermediaries have to do. So therefore, if it's like a small company, it might not have the resources. which these large social media companies have, to have. like a separate compliance team which can comply with what the government is asking. So that's also like some concern which like these companies have expressed. But apart from that, like some industry bodies and all.

also have supported these changes, which the government has brought, saying that how these are also like important to regulate, like the kind of obscene content which might be there on the internet. What about China, Tom? I guess people are quite used to the fact that your posts would be censored. So kind of posting in almost code languages and so on. That does happen actually. Yeah. It's funny, the, like the censorship organisation maintains like a list of, you know, exactly these kind of like code words that people that will come up,

and continue to evolve. So people can talk about, you know, a certain censored topics. But I would say the overall kind of atmosphere or like, when you talk to people, it's just simply the fact of life. I mean, it's you know, the kind of digital water that you swim in. I think if you get into a discussion with, with someone on it, it really depends on their specific demographic. So maybe some older people, you know, who again, remember these times when it was. like, it was a bit more easy to access Google and things like that.

Maybe they feel a bit more critically for young people, you know, especially ones who are quite savvy, you know, again, it's just, it's just sort of the reality of what it is. But if you talk to the vast majority of people, kind of live in the middle of China somewhere, it's maybe not something they think about too often. You know, I think if you talk to anyone in the world, like, hey, would you like to be able to say more things or be more critical? I think it's probably difficult to find someone.

who would say no, and again, because China, it's not just that, you know, certain things aren't accessible. It's that, that was also done, you know, either explicitly for or there was a benefit of developing. China's own internet ecosystem here. And Tom, you look at global internet governance and. in particular, China's push to have influence over global internet norms. How successful has Beijing been in that? I think it's been, I don't know, I'm not sure.

if successful is the right word I would use, but there's certainly something very interesting happening. where I think, you know, again, going back to my point earlier, where I think China was a bit prescient on certain things about, you know, the type of, media and social and political challenges that. the global internet, you know, would introduce and got way ahead of them. Right? That was one of the reasons that, these companies were locked out of China, right?

So again, prescient. At the same time, there's a huge reluctance of, you know, especially for Western democracies, to endorse that. or sign up to it or say that they're looking at it or even, admit that they're drawing some kind of lessons from it. So, the way that China sort of articulates this. on the global stage, you know, is with the, this concept of like cyber sovereignty and digital sovereignty, right? It's like, you need to control this in your country. Right? And, you know, I don't see a lot of.

Western politicians, you know, going, yeah, you're right, let's sign up to that. You know, they're very they're vocally against it. But then if you look at them in practise, it's like, yeah, but you're kind of trying to borrow some of these ideas or like, affect some of these same things, again, within the bounds of. the values that those countries would hold. But I think, as an American, I've lived in. Shanghai for 12 years and I spent most of the pandemic here. And so as an American living in China, I think I've come.

over the past few years to appreciate, in fact, what a really difficult question this is. You know, from like an ethical and political perspective, so China has these rules now, which essentially, if you're going to comment. on a topic like vaccination, you need to be a doctor, right? Like you can't just be a random person, you have to have some credibility. or something like that, you know, whereas in the US, you can just say, whatever you want.

But again, living through the pandemic and looking at, you know, how quickly these sort of like ideas spread. that vaccines are dangerous or, how much this, like contributed. to the challenge in the US was, you know, one shocking and two, kind of left me wondering, how does a government balance this? You know, how do you do this sort of in the right way, so if I have, I think for for Americans in particular, this is a very binary question.

You know, either you it's total freedom of speech or. or nothing else, or it's just all censorship. And it's like, well, I don't know, maybe, maybe there's some room. in the middle to have some sort of a sane policy, but arriving at the conclusion. or deciding that collectively is just tremendously, tremendously difficult. As you say, Tom, managing the internet. and billions of users is a mammoth task for both governments. Tom and Umang, thank you so much for joining me.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Mariko. You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email. asiaspecific at bbc.co.uk and you know the drill. Click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.