Is Australia seeing an immigration backlash? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

30 years ago, against the odds, a fish and chip shop owner. with little political experience won a seat in the Australian parliament. with her maiden speech about immigration, Pauline Hanson quickly became a household name. I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians, but. After decades of being on the political fringe, her party, One Nation, is now pulling at all time highs and winning seats at a state election. So is a surge of support for a party long wanting to curb immigration,

a sign that Australians want to cut the number of people coming in? I'm Mariko Oi in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. And today I have Bill Birtles from our Asia Pacific podcast team. I also have Simon Atkinson, who's a BBC producer based in Queensland in Australia. Welcome both. Hello, Mariko.

Hi. Great to be here. So let's start with you, Bill. We're talking about a political party that's headed by one of. the most prominent, possibly controversial politicians in Australia. So tell us about who Pauline Hanson is and where she. and her political party, One Nation Party, stand on the political spectrum. If I had one word to describe Pauline Hanson, it would probably be persistent. Her persistence in Australian politics is quite extraordinary. because I was a boy when I first remembered this woman from Ipswich.

in the state of Queensland, emerging on the scene, getting elected to the Australian Parliament. But the reason why she caught so much attention early on was. because she was running on this platform to significantly reduce immigration. And she talked about immigration. in a way that was fairly unusual at the time. At least it wasn't the way that most politicians in the Parliament spoke.

So we have a little bit, I think, of the maiden speech. that she made to Parliament all the way back in 1996, and this gives you an idea of why she caught so much attention at the time. I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians. Between 1984 and 1995, 40% of all migrants into this country were of Asian origin. They have their own culture and religion,

form ghettos and do not assimilate. Of course, I will be called racist, but if I can invite who I want into my home, then I should have the right to have a say in who comes into my country. So you can see a politician talking. about Australia having far too many migrants from Asia. This was controversial. This certainly got a lot of attention back in the late 1990s. Within a couple of years, she was voted out. She didn't last particularly long, but she just had.

this incredible knack of staying in the headlines. Of courting media attention. She's had various issues. She was actually jailed briefly. for electoral fraud before those convictions were later quashed. She went on dancing with the stars during. her political wilderness to kind of stay in the headlines. And she managed to get elected to the Australian Senate in 2016. So she was back in the parliament. And, uh, for the past decade or so,

she has been this figure who you could argue is on the political fringe. You know, her party traditionally had either had independence. or just had one or two members at the federal or state levels. She wasn't really seen as somebody who was running a party. that was about to have a serious crack of becoming Australia's government. But recently, particularly in the last few months, her poll numbers or her party's poll numbers have really surged. We're seeing national polling figures as high as.

29% for One Nation averaging sort of mid 20s. Now, this doesn't sound like, you know, 50% or anything like that, but it is a stark contrast to the polling numbers. that she and her party had, uh, say ten or 15 years ago. I remember that speech rather vividly because I moved to Australia. in 1998 to study English. And, you know, her talking about there too many Asians here. I was really worried that I wouldn't be welcome.

It wasn't the case. But Simon, from that rather infamous speech about Asians, she has been changing her tune slightly, hasn't she? And recently talking more about Australia's Muslim population. It really has been a change of tack from One Nation towards that. And certainly in the build up to this recent election. in South Australia, we heard a lot of that. Pauline Hanson gave an interview where there was a line within it. where she kind of said, there are no good Muslims now. She did,

She was kind of pulled up on it a little bit by the interviewer. And I think when he sort of listened to it in context, it wasn't, it wasn't quite as clear cut as that. But when she, she gave a sort of a partial apology, but it didn't really go that far. It effectively said, I'm not going to apologize for having views. against radical Islam in particular. And there's this real sense of, sort of an Islamic way of life being brought into Australia,

which is this message which has come through from Pauline Hanson, also from Barnaby Joyce, who is the only One nation, MP in the House of Representatives. He defected from his party, the Nationals, to become a One Nation MP. He gave some quite remarkable comments. recently where he likened he's a farmer, by the way. He's an MP, an MP out in one of the big rural seats. And he he kind of likened, the immigration of Muslims. to cattle and saying, you don't. If you have cattle that don't work for you on your farm.

You don't want them anymore, so you don't want them from that particular place. I mean, very, very kind of insensitive comments, but he's sort of he's doubled down on them. And we have just seen. this constant referral and the burqa in, in the Senate. The second time that she, she's pulled that stunt. Wasn't it, she, she did that years ago and revived it. That's right. So yeah, absolutely. The focus definitely is on, on Islam in particular.

and pushing this sense of people need to come here and fit in. And you know, this, this is very much the line because, you know, One Nation was known and they accepted. They were they were known as a racist party. They've always said, we're not racist, but we just believe that people who move to Australia. should agree with should kind of fit in with Australian values. Now, obviously, that's quite a kind of, you know, what Australian values are is quite a kind of a question. maybe come on to that a bit later on. But yeah, it's certainly problematic for for a lot of people.

I think the word assimilation was the buzzword when I was living in Australia. Whether or not migrants can assimilate into the Australian way of life, I want to get to why she and her party are gaining popularity. Once again a bit later on, but firstly, in the most recent election. in South Australia, where her party winning. more than 20% of the vote, which was a lot better than expected. How significant is that bill? I think in itself in that state, South Australia,

it's not that significant because the real story was. the incumbent centre left party. The Labor Party got re-elected. But the reason there was a lot of attention on this is. because traditionally in Australian politics, it's like a lot. of other democratic countries. Yeah, you've got two big parties, but then you've often got parties on the sort of fringe, left, fringe, right. And within those big parties, you've got this constant battle. between people who on the left. They want to be more progressive versus more centrist, and on the right.

they want to be more centrist versus, you know, further to the conservative side. And the fact that One Nation in an Australian state actually received. a greater vote share than the main centre right party, the Liberal Party, traditionally, this just hasn't happened. It's been the other way around. The Liberals with their partners, the Nationals have been the sort of main coalition. and One Nation and other parties that are further to the right. They've been on the fringe, they've been the ones.

who are kind of struggling to break through. and win lots of seats, whether it's at a state or a federal level. So you get this South Australian election where for various reasons, One Nation only ends up winning, a few seats. It's not like they've swept the parliament or anything, but getting more than 20% of the vote and outpolling the Liberal Party's, this traditional behemoth in Australian politics that's being seen, I think, as a bit of a warning sign to the Liberal Party, but also more generally that hang on, this might not just be a bit of a polling blip.

This may be a proper change on the right in Australian politics. Could this be leading to a point where One Nation seriously becomes. a real player and actually usurps the Liberal Party? So we don't know yet. So why do you think this is? Simon? Is this about anti-immigrant sentiment, anti-Islam sentiment even, or is this about voters maybe expressing their frustrations. against those major parties that Bill just talked about?

Yeah, I think it's fair to say this this election has come. against the backdrop where there has been a rise in Islamophobia. you know, we saw threats made against mosques during the recent Ramadan. There's some quite sort of footage of police, sort of sweeping men who were praying on the street in Sydney. out of the way during some protests. that were taking place against the visit of the Israeli president, a month or so ago. Um, so there is this kind,

you know, there is this kind of, um, backdrop to it. Um, I think this is a lot more people saying this isn't working for me. Society isn't working for me. Um, you get this sense. that people, you know, people have this distrust of politicians, the two party system that's dominated here in Australia for so long, and a voting system as well, which has kind of allowed it, it's kind of prevented populist parties really kind of getting significant,

making significant headway in elections so far. What about the recent Bondi shooting, a terror attack. in which two gunmen targeted Australia's Jewish community, and those gunmen were allegedly inspired by Islamic State ideologies? Do you think that had impacted maybe her party's popularity rising bill? It might be a better question for Simon as he's he's in Australia. I look at it and I think, well, yeah,

it would make sense that you had this horrific terror attack. So in the aftermath, a party that has, taken a long stance saying that we need to reduce migration, but also a party that is constantly warning about, you know, too much Islamic influence in Australia. A party where the leader, you know, she's wearing burqas. into the parliament occasionally to really make her point. about their opposition to, Islam in many facets. You would think perhaps that sort of party would get a boost.

after such a horrific terror attack. However, I'm not really sure. Talking to people in Australia, they tend to say to me that it's more general issues, things. like housing affordability, which are driving this. I wonder what Simon thinks because you know, you're there on the ground. Yeah. I think that has had a, yeah, it's kind of part of the narrative, the tone. But I think Bill's right. I think it's, it's this real core issues of people feeling. left behind more than anything.

And housing's the big one, I think, you know, Australia for people who don't know the Australian housing system, house prices have soared incredibly. And there's been a narrative being pushed. that the housing crisis is linked to immigration, that effectively migrants are taking your homes. Now, if you sort of drill into the numbers you know, a lot of experts will tell you that that doesn't really stack up. The housing situation has been going on for decades. It's driven by a lot of things, a shortage of affordable public housing,

and also a kind of a tax system that's massively geared. in favour of of investors, you know, properties being seen as a, as a real way for Australians to kind of feather their nest. and make have a happy retirement. And as a result of that, you've got generation who, you know, the prospect. of being able to buy their own home, which was this real Australian dream, owning your own picket fence and all that kind of thing. Um, just isn't happening. Yeah, because she's been kind of painting herself as a,

as a person of the people who wants to drain the elite Canberra swamp. But that's a quite a similar narrative to say. the UK's Nigel Farage, maybe even Donald Trump. Is that is that a fair comparison, Simon? Yeah. Look, I think there's lots of, similar kind of things, you know, I mean, Nigel Farage in the UK, it's a similar playbook, isn't it? It's kind of I mean, the issue in the UK is probably more. around illegal immigration. Um, whereas in Australia, by virtue of being a big island,

a long way from anywhere and a kind of a border policy. that, you know, stopped boats 20 years ago from coming in. and basically made it very, very hard to arrive in Australia illegally. Um, but you know, it's, it's actually Australia. kind of chooses who comes, who comes in and out. So it's slightly different, but it's still that same, that same message again and again that you've heard from Farage, you've heard here from Trump around illegal aliens. Simon just touched on immigration being a big talking point in the UK,

but also it's always been a big issue in Australia, hasn't it? And especially with very changing, shifting demographics. Um, this has been like a big, big, big thing in Australian politics for many years. But yeah, it generally has been for want of a better term, resolved in the sense that these days you get probably a trickle at best. of boats that are still attempting to take people, usually asylum seekers, but sometimes economic migrants as well, people trying to get to Australia.

So then that what strikes me is for all those years when the issues. of boats turning up to Australia were such a hot political potato, you also had an ever increasing number. of people legally migrating to Australia. And there was this period throughout the early noughties when. the Australian government, both both, uh, from the the John Howard right. But then also the left afterwards, the Labor Party, they always used to take credit for this wonderful, uninterrupted spell. of consecutive terms of economic growth.

Australia had this reputation of being like the miracle economy, where whenever there were setbacks elsewhere in the world, Australia just kept growing, kept growing, kept growing. and governments were happy to talk about this. They were often less happy to kind of highlight that, one of the reasons why the Australian economy just kept growing. is because of migration, because the population kept increasing. And the more more people you have needing homes. and properties and services, the more economic activity you have. So it's always been really, really vital. for Australia to keep economically growing because it's not like.

Australia is a manufacturing powerhouse or anything, anything like that. But in recent years, the current labor government has been tightening. those visa regulations and that number has been coming down. So even if you look at, say, Pauline Hanson's One Nation, their policy isn't to have zero migration. Their policy still to this day is to have zero net migration. They're basically saying, we'll cap it at about 130000 visas a year. And that corresponds roughly with the number.

of people who leave the country each year. I think Australia is, you know, incredibly diverse. You know, I grew up in in England. My exposure to Australia was, you know, Ramsay Street and Summer Bay on Home and Away, Neighbors, which might not mean anything to a lot of people listening and watching. I mean, in Neighbors, famously, there was a character from Japan, Mr. Udagawa. By the way, who ran a, you know, a kind of a hotel chain. And that was pretty much as exotic as it got.

And, you know, the, again, the everyone else, it was it was it was long hair and surfboards. and you know, going down the waterhole pub and, and all this kind of thing. And clearly that, you know, that wasn't the reality of Australia even in the, in the 1990s when that, in the 80s and 90s. when that program was coming out and certainly not today. You know, any major city, you've got huge numbers of people, you know, most of them still Australian born, you know, second, third, fourth generation from all over the world.

And you have some, you know, suburbs in, in Sydney. I don't live in Sydney anymore, but I used to live in Sydney. You know, if you wanted a, a great Vietnamese meal as a suburb, you could go and you'd have like a line of Vietnamese restaurants up the road. You know. I feel, having been based in the region that Australia is actually an outlier in, in Asia Pacific, there really aren't many countries that have sustained,

mass immigration, well organized mass immigration systems. that are sort of baked into the fabric of how the societies work. And this is something I don't think many Australians growing up necessarily. are too cognizant of. I think they look at the United States, they look at Europe, and they compare themselves. And, if you look at the region, uh, obviously Singapore is a unique example. It has a lot of immigration, but in a very sort of different way, a controlled way. Other countries aren't really.

immigration countries in this part of the world, but if you look at parts of this region where populations are shrinking, whether it's Japan or China, these are not migration countries. And these are countries where I don't know much about Japan. You can fill me in there. But when it comes to a country like China, every now and then, the government kind of raises. this idea of, well, we have a shrinking population now. We're trying to encourage people to have more kids. Maybe we should open the door a little bit more to. at least having migrant workers coming in. And you often get a bit of a backlash on social media,

and the idea gets put back in the bottle. And, you know, you just don't. Do much the same in Japan. Yeah, you just don't see mass migration and a genuine idea. of multiculturalism really as being part of most countries in Asia. There are some exceptions, but most of them it's not the norm. Whereas for Australia and for Western countries, places like Canada, it is the norm. So I think that's kind of affected my perspective in thinking about Australia. Sure, it has a colonial history, you know. Sure, the White Australia policy, etc., but also.

contemporary Australia when you compare it to the region. You have basically a migration policy that's based on skills. or your, your family networks, your ability basically to slot. into the society or you're going there to study. Um, you can make arguments. about whether the asylum intake should be larger or not, but it feels to me a bit, it's a bit rough to say that Australia has some sort of, you know, fundamentally racist backbone when in the actual region.

it is the one of the exceptions when it comes to migration. I guess, you know, New Zealand as well. So unfair perception or not, how far can Pauline Hanson. and her One Nation party go this time, do you think, Simon? Well, look, we've got some real kind of, um, real world tests to see how how they're going to do. We've got a by-election coming up quite shortly. Um, for the seat of the former Liberal leader Sussan Ley. in the seat of One Nation are going to contest that hard. They're going to want to get another MP in the House of Representatives,

give them, giving them to there and to really sort of show their intent. There's also a state election in Victoria. Um, later in the year, the Labor Party much less strong there. than it is in um, it is South Australia. And so, you know, one nation will be very confident, I would think if they can keep this momentum going of picking up more seats. And so I guess what it kind of does is it gives them a bit of credibility. You know, for some voters they say, oh right, okay. People are voting them in.

Perhaps they don't feel so shy about about making similar choices themselves. It's two still two years until the, uh, the federal election. It'll be around about May 2028. So Anthony Albanese and Labor and the, the coalition, you know, are really going to have to look very hard at, um, how One Nation. are kind of campaigning and work out how they're going to counter it. And I think I suspect. that what they're going to have to do is kind of make people happier, make people less dissatisfied with the way things are going on.

But of course, you know, when we've got the situation like we have. at the moment in the Middle East, soaring fuel prices, inflation tipped to keep rising here in Australia, more interest rate rises predicted. This all plays into the hands of One Nation. Yeah. I guess that's a that's a common challenge. for all the political leaders across the region. Thank you so much for sharing your insights, Simon and Bill. Thanks, Mariko. Thanks so much for having me. Cheers. You've been watching Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service.

with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below. You can also get in touch with us on email: AsiaSpecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.