Is Asian dating culture leading to lower fertility rates? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

We've long talked about Asia's demographic problem, where people are having fewer and fewer babies. But Rachel, has South Korea actually managed to reverse the trend? That's right. Mariko. So for two consecutive years in 2024 and 2025, more babies were born in South Korea. But having said that, the population is still shrinking. because we're seeing more deaths than births. And from South Korea to Japan to China, all these governments have been scrambling to tackle this issue.

But marriage rates are down. So now a local government in Japan is offering money to young, single people to go on a dating app. And according to reports, Singapore might be considering. a government run dating service. So we're asking is Asia's dating culture to blame? As always, I'm Mariko in Singapore. and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best.

Rachel Lee from our team is our expert on everything Korea. and now everything about babies. Welcome back. Great to be back, Mariko. I also have Simone Heng, who's an author and a human connection expert. Now do you want to introduce yourself to our viewers and listeners? I don't know how much personal information you want to reveal, but I think we're going to end up talking about our age. I'm 44, by the way. I'm 42. I'm married with three kids. So do you want to? Yeah. I mean if Rachel is the expert on all things,

baby, I guess I'm the single ladies expert. The single ladies expert, in addition to working in the human connection space. Yeah, well, it's great to have you on the pod. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. So what is a human connection? Yeah. So human connection basically is I guess, topic that I work in. I sit on a board in DC called the Foundation for Social Connection. And most of the time I'm just on planes speaking for Fortune 500. around the world on how connection can improve their performance.

But you can't talk about connection without talking about loneliness, which is also a bit linked to what we're going to talk about today. And I wrote a book on that called Let's Talk About Loneliness. So yeah, that's my full time job is talking, speaking, writing, researching the latest in the human connection field. Yeah, because I saw a description of you being a loneliness expert as well. Yes. Yeah, we'll definitely talk about that. But let's start with you, Rachel, because we've been talking. about this demographic crisis where people are having fewer babies.

So many measures like baby bonuses have been announced. None of them seems to have worked. But the one recent one that caught my eye in Japan was a local government's. plan to subsidise, give money to single people to join a dating app. And according to reports, Singapore government may also be coming up with its own dating app. So can you just tell us about some of these new measures? Yeah, I know, it's so interesting that the government is trying to chip in.

to, you know, like people's personal lives, especially love life to boost birth rate, right? So when I was reporting back in South Korea, I actually covered one of these events. So it was actually city government. So they were holding these blind date events for young people. And it was so popular they only had 100 seats available, but 3000 applicants. Wow. Wow. Applied for that. And for the record, you went there as a reporter. As a reporter, not as an applicant.

She's married. Right. So, it was that popular. And what was interesting is that they give out congratulatory money. if the couple goes out on a second date. Wow. How much? That, I'm not really sure. But if they do get married, they get another bonus. Wow. The congratulatory money. And I was also looking into China, and it was really interesting. that the government also held this,

they were sponsoring blind date events in 2017. So that's earlier than South Korean government. And also they were giving out cash to married women to encourage them to have babies. And also what was another interesting point was that they were encouraging. universities to introduce this love courses to their students. What's love courses? So it's like basically teaching like love relationship and like, marriage. and all sorts of things that are related to love life.

And Simone, you were the one who were telling me. about this Singapore government potentially releasing... Yeah. Oh, bless them that they did a survey first before they just put it. on the population. So I think that's really smart. So they did a survey to see whether Singaporeans would be open to. because effectively Singaporeans were coupled up, would be helping to subsidise this, for Singaporeans that were single and you'd get your date covered. if you went on these government arranged dates.

So what's interesting is that the government scheme says they're vetting. for interests as well as values. And actually, if you look at a lot of the relationship experts. like Esther Perel, they actually say common interests is something. that social media has made us hung up about in potential partners, because actually, you are not meant to have. the exact same hobby and everything aligned. You have friends for certain things, but the values in terms. of the human connection, research value alignment is really important.

I mean, I think, how do I phrase it, the traditional values, familial pressure that I think especially our generation was under. in order to get married, have kids and so on. I think that's quite different to today's generation, Gen Z. And Rachel is, you're the youngest end of... Do you feel that pressure? I think it depends on what type, what kind of family you grew up with, right? I mean, but I think if you think about the overall phenomenon.

these days, I think things are more different. So people are now getting married more late, or they're not even getting married at all. So that's where the generational conflict happens. But still, parents are trying to accept the fact. that people's thinkings are changing and they value more in career sometimes. So some of the women who went through all these, like traditional values, they know that women's job and women's career,

it does affect women's life. So they want their daughters to pursue career instead of getting married. So, I think because of that, even though generational changes can cause kind of like a conflict, there are some of the parents who support their children, who support their daughters for not getting married and have children. I mean, I think it's because of all these things that we've been talking about.

And as a result, across Asia, in many developed economies, fewer and fewer babies have been born. But, Rachel, I want you to tell me about South Korea because, you know, my country, Japan was like a pioneer. in declining birth rate and shrinking population. And South Korea was actually lower. But now more babies were born two years in a row. Yeah. So how did they do that? So more babies were born two years in a row, as you said. So the reason, fertility rate.

But before I talk about, delve into all these numbers, let me just explain the definition. of fertility rate because it may be confusing. It's quite different how you calculate it compared. to like other like terminology like birth rate. So fertility rate. I have a definition here. So it's an average number of children that are born. to a woman over her lifetime. So basically that number recorded 0.8 in 2025, so last year. And that was the biggest jump in 15 years.

So people are like really, like hopeful. Maybe the society is changing. But actually, many experts warn that it's too early to come down. to the conclusion that this may be the result of the efforts of the government. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the replacement rate, in order for the population not to shrink, it has to be 2.1. 2.1. Yeah. Even though it has gone up from, what was it, 0.75 to 0.8, its population is still shrinking.

It's still shrinking, and it's still very low, right? But experts say this slight uptick might be because of echo boomers. So echo boomers are people who were born between 1991 to 1996. And the reason why they're called echo boomers is. because they're children of the previous boomers generation. So basically during that period, it echoed. Like it started to boom again. The population boomed during that period. And people born during that period is now in their late 20s and 30s,

which is why they're getting married and having children. Thus, we're seeing an uptick. And another reason might be a pandemic. As many of our viewers and listeners might be familiar, during the pandemic, people didn't really get married and have children. But now, because it's post-pandemic, more of them are getting married. and having children, and we're seeing an uptick here. It's worth also pointing out at this point, before we go further about dating and everything else, is why it's actually bad for a population to shrink.

I mean, it's basically that the economy relies. on the number of people you have to work and so on. Right? Yeah. I mean, to simply put, decline in population can cause societal structure change. Because I mean, if you look at South Korea, they say, so all the projections suggest that if we go with this flow, so with this scenario, South Korea's population,

40% of the population by mid-century will be 65 and over. And even in Japan now, 30% of the population in Japan are actually 65 and above. So this can cause a lot of societal pressure, number one, fiscal pressure, because people who need like, health care system and like pension are increasing. So the demand is increasing, but people who can provide that service.

is decreasing. So there's a financial burden there. And secondly, there's a lack of workforce, right? Even Japan is seeing lack of workforce. in many sectors like construction and elder care. So these can lead to economic slowdown. And Simone, you and I were talking about the traditional values, how that may have affected people, especially of our generation. Their choice to either get married or not or to have children or not.

Can you just explain what role those traditional values you think played. in this whole demographic crisis that we're having now? Was an age something that you were told? Wasn't so much about age. It was quality of partner was talked about. So there was a lot of, and it was never directly. It was sort of like, oh, so and so, oh, he was a bad man or that relationship. So it was more like, really look for quality of human.

But honestly, and I think a lot. of women of our generation who are watching can empathise with this. You know, it was very easy to meet people when I was younger. I was living all over the world. And then my mother, my father died when I was 19. And then my mother became paralysed with a cognitive disease when I was 29. I'm so sorry. Thank you. And so I spent a lot of time caring. for both my father's death and that in those peak years of dating.

And when I emerged from that process and did. all the self-work and thought, okay, now I'm a, I'm a good prospect for someone, I've sorted myself out. I didn't realise I was very naive to the fact that my age made me undesirable. Yeah, that's kind of my story. So now I find myself ready to date at 42. And yeah, it's not, unfortunately, not desirable in the market. I don't feel that way about me, but the data that I have had reflected back. to me seems to have swung that way.

Yeah. I mean, you've touched on it before, but why do you think younger women with less burden from the family, society. and so on, why do you think fewer Asian people are dating, you know, stuck in their room watching Netflix or, you know, not getting married? Why do you think that. As a Singapore born person who has Singaporean parents and has lived here, you know, for a long time, you've got a super educated.

I can just talk Singapore specifically, right? Super, super educated workforce for women and and men. And I think that and they're also cosmopolitan, they're really exposed. And I think when you're like that, maybe we are pickier, maybe we're also very risk averse culturally. So you're actually dating thinking of all the things that could go wrong here. and then you're highly intelligent, then you're, you know, and I think that's part of what is wonderful about the Singapore national character.

That's why we do so well in a crisis, etc., etc.. But I wonder if that intercepts romance sometimes because a very pragmatic. Right. Yeah. I wonder if that could be. I'm just speaking for Singapore specifically. Adding to that, there is actually a statistics like a survey that, well, Simone just told us about Singaporean point of view. I will talk about Northeast Asian point of view. So there was a survey conducted by Nippon Foundation in Japan, and they asked people who said,

I have no plans of getting married in the near future, asked why. And the 40% of the respondents said they prefer to be just single. They just like being single. And 33% said they can't see any benefits out of marriage. And in South Korea, they did a similar survey in 2022, and majority of them said they haven't saved up money, enough money to get married. And also there were answers like unstable unemployment.

So there's like all these sorts of social, you know, problems all combined all together so that they came down. to a conclusion that we're just going to make marriage. and having birth as an option. And as we've been talking about it, Asian governments have been trying practically everything to try to get. young people to start dating and have children. All of them have practically failed in terms of boosting the birth rate.

And, you know, the population is shrinking a lot faster, especially in Japan than even estimated. Do you think there's something that a government could have done. which may have persuaded younger Simone to get married, have children or, you know, change your personal journey. So I'm going to talk in terms of the just basic. human connection science stuff that I do with my job all the time. So when you have high pressure and that could come from education,

high cost of living or rigid social norms, Japan and Korea, most rigid social norms in the world. When we're in fight or flight like that, and we're full of those stress hormones, even from very young, we don't connect as well with others for friendship or even for romance. Oxytocin, the social bonding hormone. that really comes alive when we're relaxed. I just think that if you have high stress, high pressure societies, that can make it more difficult to connect.

Academic and other pressure. You can say it however you want. I mean, I love living in a city with the most, you know, highly educated people in the world practically. I mean, I love I love the intellectual sparring. that comes with living in a place like Singapore. But all I can tell you is that the science of how it works. like that, oxytocin, we need that. And when we're stressed, it decreases. Do you think, like government trying to chip into people's love life,

love life is effective? Do you think it's an effective way to... I think it's so complex. So one size fits all strategy could serve. when they survey, you know, could serve a good chunk. But there are always going to be other nuanced reasons. And let's work backwards. That means there's no longer a timeline for dating. You can be 60 and now live to 100 and meet your future partner. That changes all the goalposts. I think it's very varied. Yeah.

And I guess from the government's point of view, trying to just do anything, everything possible so that the birth rate doesn't actually go down even more. You know, it's kind of trying to keep it, yes, low, but not falling off the cliff is what they're doing at the moment. I guess from the Asian mentality of, you know, a kid outside an official marriage is still kind of seen as a taboo in Asia. compared to Europe. So I guess while not all married couples would have children,

but if you're not dating and if you don't get married, you can't really expect a lot of Asians to end up having kids. I just had one more question to Simone. There are so many policies around the world. to boost birth rate and marriage rate. And among that, what do you think is the most effective way. that would actually, like, change your mind?

Is it like giving out cash or is it. like, work life balance improvement or, you know. Okay, I absolutely did want to be a mother and get married. I never thought it wouldn't happen for me, but it was very specific that it had to be the right person. in order to be the partner of a potential child for me. And anything less than that right person, because of the rigid social norms around marriage was not okay. So the one thing that would change my mind is absolutely still,

if the right person walked in, people. Do say like young people do say. the most important thing is to find the right person. Which is why the government is maybe holding all these, like, dating events. so that they could expand the opportunity for young people to, to connect. I can just say also, as someone who all of my friends and a lot of them happily married, also a lot of divorce conversations that I get in the left ear, but in the right ear, even the most happily married girlfriends, their cognitive load is huge compared to my cognitive load.

I have to worry about my mother, but besides that, it's pretty chill. And that tells me that even with the most loving marriage. and the best fit for a husband you could find, being a wife and mother is challenging. and the burden is on the woman cognitively. And so you better find that right person. For me, those conversations make the pressure to find the right person even higher.

Yeah. I guess as you say, no matter how much the government tries to help, it's really difficult to change people's mind. when it comes to dating or having children. But it was really interesting to hear. your thoughts on more relaxed societies might be actually the cure. Thank you so much for joining me, Simone and Rachel. Thank you. You've been watching Asia Specific. from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below.

You can also get in touch with us on email asiaspecific@bbc.co.uk. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.