How China is controlling anger over the Hong Kong fire - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

It was a tragedy that unfolded as the world watched. And now the questions about why the worst fire in Hong Kong. for more than 70 years happened. As the death toll increased, a university student in the city was reportedly arrested by police. for demanding answers. It's a small taste of how radically Hong Kong has changed over the last decade. But can the anger in the aftermath.

of this massive disaster be managed the way China's government wants? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories. unpacked by those who know them best. Today I have Martin Yip from the BBC's Chinese service, as well as. Danny Vincent, who is a senior journalist for the BBC World Service. It's good to have you both on Asia Specific. Firstly, let me ask you, Danny, what the mood is in Hong Kong.

because this is the biggest fire in living memory. That's right. Hong Kong people here are very shocked by this tragedy. The fire itself burned for around 40 hours. People were incredibly moved and saddened by this event. I'd say across the city there's a mixture of sorrow and grief. Thousands of people have been mourning over the weekend. But also there's also a sense of anger. People definitely want to have answers.

They're worried about the causes of this fire, and they're looking for a sense of accountability. They're looking for answers, and. they want people to, especially the authorities, to provide these answers, in terms of what caused the fire. And they're questioning if this was purely an accident. or if this was something that could have been prevented. And, Martin, you've been at the scene. It's been a very difficult week, hasn't it? Danny mentioned some anger among the locals.

What are people exactly angry about, Martin? Well, quite a lot of things, including or even. or I should say, even including how the firefighters fought this fire. But of course, that's something that steps. into the territory of their profession. And the fire service. they tried to explain all the difficulties that they've encountered, including the very fact that this scene is so big. We talk about seven out of eight buildings here, 32 storeys each, eight flats on each floor.

So it's a massive fire scene that I can't even recall in my memory. I wanted to say that I think the initial reports were suggesting. that perhaps bamboo scaffolding was part of the problem, but then there was a really quite a strong pushback. from many people in Hong Kong saying that, of course, this investigation hasn't begun, and it's unfair to lay the blame towards the bamboo scaffolding.

There's a strong cultural connection that many people have here. in Hong Kong with the bamboo scaffolding. So that became somewhat of a controversial talking point, especially online quite early on. I think people are very keen to find out. what the cause of the fire was and why it spread unusually so quickly. But at the same time, there's almost. like a political dimension here where people are also keen to defend one of. Hong Kong's traditional industries, if you like.

Indeed. There's been quite a lot of finger pointing, hasn't there? I want to ask you both about these reported arrests. At the time of this podcast recording, we haven't got an official confirmation, but it has been widely reported that a 24-year-old university student, Miles Kwan, as well as two others, may have been detained. Now what this student, Miles, was accused. of doing, starting an online petition demanding answers, demanding an independent inquiry into the fire.

I mean, one would think that outside of China, that's a pretty natural thing for residents to demand. And yet, is this seen as what Beijing considers, what's the exact phrase that they use, "anti-China disruptions"? One of the reasons that Beijing would think. this way is somehow related to. what might be called the 2019 vibes here, because the way of the phrasing is somehow in.

the so-called, nowadays China point of view, it sounds like one of those sensitive things that might. trigger things in people's minds, those in the government, that might explain why they are taking. a more sensitive approach on this. And, Danny, what was your reaction to these reported arrests? I mean, the fact that Miles was arrested on suspicion. of trying to incite sedition, I mean, that's a pretty serious accusation. I think, to anybody outside of Hong Kong and China,

I think it would be extremely surprising to hear that, these type of actions could be considered as sedition. However, in Hong Kong, in recent years, the city's completely transformed. I would say the protest movement. in 2019 and the volunteer movement, shall we call it that, is organising goods here in Hong Kong? This week after the fire, there are so many similarities. The age group of the people, many young people are very active on the streets.

They're organised, they're communicating on Telegram and on social media. I've actually joined some of these Telegram groups. There are thousands of people communicating now. This type of activity obviously would worry the authorities. Since 2019, when there were thousands upon thousands of people taking. to the streets to protest against greater control from Beijing. And the authorities later introduced a National Security Law. And essentially, since then, there have been.

no real widespread mass gatherings in Hong Kong. Now, this type of gathering that we've seen has been very different. on the surface because it's actually an attempt to mobilise supplies. for people that have been affected by the fire. But perhaps in the eyes of the authority, they see this. as a mass gathering, which is very similar to what happened in 2019. Yeah. You both mentioned those 2019 pro-democracy protests, which we were all covering together.

I mean, the city is known for pretty vibrant protest culture at the time. Do you think this arrest of this young student, would this be enough to stop others from speaking up, or could this actually encourage others to maybe start something else? I think the national security law works in two ways. I think in one way it's obviously a law and people are arrested. But in another way, I think it's designed to spread fear. And I think this reported arrest would do the latter.

I think that during the protest movement, a large percentage of Hong Kong people took to the streets. to protest against greater control from Beijing. But today, because of the arrests across the city, people are terrified to protest. People are afraid to go out. I think that these few reported arrests have already had. quite a big impact in Hong Kong. Here, people talk about an idea of white terror, an idea.

of a type of psychological fear that's spread through the community. And I think that people often say. that that's a very powerful mechanism to control the society. And I think that's possibly what we're seeing again here. Somebody prominently spoke out. and asked for an independent investigation online. The language and the style seemed very similar to the 2019 protest movement. So there was potentially political undertones there.

People that I've spoken to also say that. they're afraid to even continue volunteering. On the first and second day when the fire broke out, huge numbers of people would organise online and also. in person, gathering goods, and they were very prominent and. at the site of the fire. But then very quickly, the police basically cleared. or asked for all the goods to be cleared. And people that I've been speaking to are now afraid to speak to the media.

They're afraid to speak out about even volunteering. because they think that they could be targeted. by potentially national security charges just for organising goods, just for making deliveries. That's astonishing, isn't it? And I guess it goes to show how much Hong Kong has changed. I want to ask you, Martin, your opinions. on how this makes you feel as someone who grew up in Hong Kong, because we've just seen this radical change in how people,

how young people react to even a disaster like this, where they just probably wanted to express some support. Well, it's definitely a different Hong Kong. At least we didn't see even back in 2019. we didn't. see that kind of violent clashes between protesters. and the police and the one before that was of that scale, would have been 1967, way before my time. And now we went through that.

and we have like daily stress of importance of safe guarding. China's national security, being a Chinese loyal to the Chinese Communist Party, that's a. very different atmosphere from, not just five years ago, but from literally from from like 1997. when the place was first handed over. Uh, and I guess this fire happened just over a week.

before Hong Kong holds its elections. Of course, the elections are not what they used to be. Beijing has changed its rules, so only candidates who are seen to be more loyal. towards Beijing can take part. There were reports that these elections might get postponed, but it seems like they're going to go ahead. Is there still much interest in these elections, Danny? I think the authorities were very concerned. that perhaps there'll be a low turnout for the elections.

The electoral system has been reformed and transformed in the years. since the national security law was introduced. It's also worth noting that even before that, the majority of the political opposition have. either fled Hong Kong or they're living in exile. So many people that would have been supporting the pro-democracy movement. before, people that took to the streets in protest in 2019, in 2014 before, and even years before that, they were definitely and certainly feel that.

the Hong Kong democracy movement has essentially been eroded. The nature of the election now means that only people that are patriotic. to Beijing, that essentially means people that are vetted. and accepted by the authorities can even stand in the election. So the authorities here, of course, say that this is a free. and fair election, and they're looking forward. to a new generation of lawmakers coming into Hong Kong.

But many critics would say that this is more of a selection process. than an election, because many of the candidates hold similar opinions. When we talk about the election, I think, just to point out one thing, you're going to have to see how much has changed, because. anything you now say that would have been seen. as encouraging people to not go to vote or to cast an invalid ballot. is itself a vote rigging crime that could end you up in in jail.

and is the Independent Commission Against Corruption. who is pressing charges on that. So which means you could make yourself a corruption fugitive. or corruption criminals by. saying anything that is deemed to be discouraging people from going to vote. And that is marking a significant difference. from what voting is in Hong Kong. now, comparing to five years ago or so. In terms of this fire, are locals confident that the Hong Kong government.

and maybe the mainland Chinese government, they're going to tackle some. of the fundamental (systemic) issues that you were talking about. and make sure that those responsible will be held accountable, Danny? People definitely do want answers. Occasionally on the streets, people have shown anger. when I've spoken to them, especially young people. They've spoken of corruption. They think that some of the material was not safe.

They think there needs to be clearly an independent investigation. Some older people I've spoken to, they describe this as an important test for the government. They were almost trying to hold back their conclusions. And they describe this as a test for the government. They said that they're neutral now. They want to find out what the causes are, but it felt like they had a type of suspicion. that something wasn't quite right. They didn't want to jump to a conclusion to to say that,

but they just kept repeating that this is an important test for the government. And I think the reason they were saying that is because... Can I just jump in? What exactly do you think. the people that you spoke to, what do they want the government to do? I think there's lots of allegations. Of course, there's an investigation ongoing, so we don't know. But they feel that some of the material that was used is unsafe. They're concerned that maybe there was some contract rigging.

That's another allegation that I've heard. Also, allegations of. of corruption, of cutting corners. They haven't drawn a conclusion, but they definitely suspect that. Well, they definitely want an open and fair investigation. And I think they feel that in the past, they would have had that in Hong Kong. And right now, because things have changed so much, I guess. they're concerned that they may not have that. It is a tragedy. It is a big fire.

Yes, we need a reform. Yes. We have identified failures in different stages. That is exactly why we must act seriously, to ensure that all these loopholes are plugged, so that those who are responsible will be accountable. I want to ask, you know, what's next for Hong Kong?

I mean, you know, does this disaster show how Hong Kong is now. a Chinese city where no dissidents, no opposition is allowed? Danny, you've been covering various stories from the city for many years now. How do you think young people are changing? Are they changing? I think one significant difference is. that, firstly, so many people have left Hong Kong. since the National Security Law was introduced. I think many of the people that might have been motivated.

to take more action on the streets today in Hong Kong, the people that would have done that in 2019, I think many of them have left the city. I think many people have been arrested. I think the second point is that the young students that are. on the streets today, the volunteers organising things, they may have been in high school at the time in 2019. So you can definitely feel there's a sense of that. They want to do something.

But we also have to remember that Hong Kong has changed drastically. in those five years. Not just the arrests, not just people leaving, not just the change to the election electoral system, but also change in the education system. Beijing has imposed this National Security Law. It's had a big impact on education. I was speaking to a teacher, and they said that, it's mandatory for many students in Hong Kong to visit the mainland.

to salute the flag, to learn about National Security Law. So I think that the fabric of the city has changed. I think one thing that hasn't changed is that, especially young people, they want to take part in and contribute to, I guess, their future and to their community. Indeed, a tragic situation that has put Hong Kong. back in the global news headlines. Martin Yip and Danny Vincent, thank you so much. for speaking to me on Asia Specific.

You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service. with me, Mariko in Singapore. If you have any questions or thoughts on what we've covered in this episode. or any other stories from the region, do leave us a comment below. and click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. But for now, thank you so much for watching and see you next time!