Has Korean soft power peaked? - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service

This is kind of what Soft Power does, right? It might even improve my dating chance. You know, one story I've done is about. Western women coming to Korea after watching a lot of K-drama. Because they want to primarily date Korean men. Japan has Hello Kitty and Pokemon. China has its micro dramas, but it's South Korea with the K-pop phenomenon. Oscar winning films and viral Netflix hits. that's currently reshaping the idea of what's cool in Asia.

Soft power isn't just about pop culture, though. Governments here know whether it's entertainment or economics. A country's ability to charm others can achieve real diplomatic goals. But how much further can South Korea go? Are other countries here in Asia catching up? Has the Korean Wave peaked? I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Pacific from the BBC World Service. Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best.

I have Fan Wang in the studio and Jake Kwon in Seoul. Thank you both. And firstly, Fan, I understand that you discovered Korean culture in the 2000s. Probably way ahead of everyone else. when it used to be, I guess kind of more niche. When did you feel that Asian soft power, especially South Korean ones, had become kind of mainstream cool, especially in the West? Yeah, I was a bit ahead of my time, I have to say. I mean, I discovered randomly discovered this,

this world of South Korean entertainment on the internet in late 2000. At that time, I think it was nowhere like even mainstream in Asia. But I think then there's this wave of K-pop idols, you know, the they're the second generation. Dong Bang Shin Ki, Super Junior, and then like Girls Generation Big Bang, they became really huge in Asia. And then you can kind of get this sense that K-pop is really powerful.

But then still, even then, you didn't really see. them getting much attention in the West, in the English speaking world. And I think BTS really was the game changer there. And in the late 2010s, BTS then followed by Blackpink. It had this momentum of K-pop going in the global stage, and I think that is when I think K-pop got discovered by. the whole world and everyone trying to figure out what made them so good.

And they can't seem to get enough of it at the moment. No. And Jake, did you notice that shift in attitude towards K-pop or K culture? I think, you know, South Korea's Korean Wave has been around for 20, 30 years. And as far as I can remember, you know, I started seeing. as a child, started seeing these headlines about. how popular some of these shows are in China and Japan. The bands were really big, you know, Big Bang was really hot at the time.

And then I remember, you know, I went over to Canada, where I grew up, and my friends in the they're kind of secondary school, the middle school there, you know, they asked me, do you know H-Sonic? Do you know Girls Generation? And then they also, you know, started showing me videos of music videos. So I think there was a lot of Asian Americans, as well as the Asian Asians, who were really embracing it at the time. But, you know, when I ask some of the people who are really. big fans of it who are, you know, non-Asian Americans or Europeans.

who are really into it now who are now almost, chosen life in Korea because they were so into it. You know, they, they tell me that they, they were really into kind of, Japanese culture first, whether that's anime or like J-pop. And then they were introduced to it. through YouTube and other streaming services like Netflix. So I think there's a pipeline. And that kind of shift came about. I don't know, when, when Netflix and YouTube really became everywhere.

I guess if the goal of soft power is to improve the image of your country. through your cultural exports, I guess South Korea has really succeeded. But I remember back in the 80s and 90s, you know, Japan was quite a leader. with Hello Kitty and Pokemon and all the games as well. And then South Koreans just kind of, you know, overtook us. in the pop culture sphere. How did they do that, Jake? It's something that is still kind of being debated, but it is, I think.

it's a good mix of kind of government getting out of the way. You know, South Korea, if you remember, was a military dictatorship. There was a censorship on what you can and not say about it. You couldn't really criticize the government. And then around the democratization of 1980s, the government, you know, really allowed everybody to kind of start voicing their opinions. They really got out of the way. And they instead, they let. all kinds of media companies to start sprouting, you know,

from the earlier kind of state controlled model. And then South Korea also was becoming a really rich country at the time. And a lot of South Koreans, you know, they grew up watching Hollywood films, listening to, you know, American musicians. So they really wanted to emulate that. And they had the money at the time. So you got this really high production value stuff that is able to kind of. touch on any taboo subject that might be in any other Asian countries. And then you start to see that these become really, really popular in Asia. And then you see, like Netflix and YouTube,

really creating this superhighway to sell this Korean content to anywhere in the globe. Yeah, I actually think it's quite interesting. you mentioned this, that the government got out of the way. But I do wonder, you know, like all these countries, they all want to develop their soft power, right? But why is South Korea's, like entertainment industry so successful? Like why? No, I think that's a very good question. And many countries, you know, they have tried as well.

But if you look at South Korean government spending. in the cultural department. Cultural ministry. It's still only around one to 1.5% of the national budget, which is not that much higher than other developed countries. South Korea has been putting a lot of money behind it, but the money started coming after the success, but it was really not successful until the advent of the social media. And I feel like K-pop especially, is something that is still not there in the mainstream America.

It still kind of has that, feel that this is something that is niche. Or maybe if you do not identify yourself as somebody of the mainstream culture, this is something that you can kind of enjoy and build a community. with other people who also feel like you're a bit of an outsider. So you really need that social media to kind of infiltrate and penetrate. the kind of the type of people who would enjoy this kind of content. And I guess now many other Asian countries want to repeat the success.

of South Korea. And China, for one, has been trying to boost its soft power, whether that be the language being spoken outside. of the Chinese community or, you know, through pop culture as well. You know, my youngest is absolutely still obsessed with Labubu, for example. How much of that, though, Fan, Is it state controlled or is it kind of organic, spontaneous cultural export? I think if we look okay, China is definitely.

a different case from South Korea, right? Because the state control is so much more like, obvious in China. If. Yeah, if we say the South Korean soft power development is quite organic, I would say China, it usually would be something like state-initiated first. Like the, the Chinese language, learning boom. China tried to push for it, by establishing all these Confucius Institutes around the world.

And then. it's easy to backfire when, when China became the target. of espionage suspicions and. a lot of accusations, like, of human rights records. So then, like, these kind of state, state-backed institutions would become target as well. And as we are now seeing with the Confucius Institutess around the world. But an interesting case because, I think Labubu is a good example.

of where Chinese soft power is right now. Labubu is a doll, right? I, I'm sure everyone knows what it is now, although you might, you know, disagree whether it's cute or not. But Labubu was not created for soft power. purpose. It is a business brand. It was made to to create profit for the company Popmart. But then as it became so popular and viral around the world,

the Chinese government is claiming it as a soft power win. But if you look at it, it doesn't really look particularly Chinese. But people who buy it probably don't mind. or don't care whether it's Chinese or not. But then still, the success of Labubu would boost. China's soft power image because it makes people think. China would be cool enough to produce something like this.

Right. So this is, I think, where China's soft power is now. It's like embedded into consumer trends, into pop culture, like internet culture. So it's approaching people in a way that is less political. Now, I always wondered like, because China has. some of these elements going on, going with it. Right? It's a rich country. It definitely has money and it has talent, right. And and, you know, it has a huge market and it's very famous.

Like no one in the world doesn't know what China is. Everybody knows what China is. But with its kind. of censorship that is in place and also kind of the the global public, you know, there are sometimes suspicious of Chinese government. or they're threatened by Chinese government. I mean, you know, will that kind of, can we see, you know, Kpop, you know, supplanting K-pop one day? Can we see Chinese TV shows and movies on Netflix, you know, becoming the most watched content? I mean, do you see a future like that?

Well, I think okay, that's a very good question, Jake. Well, um, I think in this current climate, it's hard to see that happen any time soon. I think because the relationship between China. and the West is still, like, changing. And I think that is that is the key here. in terms of whether we will see China, whether we will see.

people in the West have a more favorable opinion about China in the near future. Right. I just want to also say like, you know, I was talking about the negative view of China. might might impede its like soft power, but also soft power actually improves your image. Right? Sometimes it's almost also like a virtuous cycle. Right. You you have more soft power. And thus, uh, there's a better image of your country. and that that makes you have even more soft power. And then, you know, there's this, cycle that that kind of builds on, snowballs.

And, you know, this is something that that we saw. And, you know, it's definitely really kind of, I guess I want to touch on. and ask you Mariko, like, did you also feel, because I feel. like Japanese soft power was really exuberant in the 80s and 90s? I mean, did you feel that? Did you, you know, notice, like any personal benefits? No. Not really. Um, but I guess that was kind of the norm growing up, like hello Kitty and Pokemon being popular. But, you know, as a kid, I didn't really think of whether they were popular overseas.

I think it was it was almost when K-pop started to do really. well and I thought, oh, but we had J-pop bands as well. You know, why couldn't they become so much, you know, as popular as K-pop bands? And then I think. But even then, I was still adamant that no, Japan still has strong soft power. If it's if this is a competition, we could still be winning. with Studio Ghibli and Nintendo games and stuff. until my two daughters got absolutely obsessed with K-pop Demon Hunters.

And that's when I thought, okay, they nailed it. They know exactly what to do to capture the mind of, you know, American, Western countries' fans. I mean, I guess in a way, the three countries all influence each other in their subculture. Like, I don't want to turn this conversation into, you know, something too controversial. Starting to talk about, you know, what's Korean and what's Chinese and what's Japanese. But I think it's fair to say that we're kind of all affected. among each other, aren't we? And at the same time,

there's that American influence that you talked about, Jake. And, you know, that brings me to probably a rather controversial question. of, you know, is K-pop Demon Hunters even Korean? Because I was surprised to learn when I was watching the documentary of. how the program was made, that a lot of the singers are Korean American. So, you know, what would you say? Is it Korean or is it American? Well, I think inside South Korea. there is no real controversy of Korean people, you know,

feeling like something was stolen from them because Sony Pictures made this, you know, really successful, TV, uh, I mean, animation that uses Korean element. I mean, they do a really, really good job. of depicting Korean culture very faithfully. I think a lot of Korean people were actually very happy to see. K-pop Demon Hunters, even though Korean enterprises not making not making a single dollar out of this. Right. But on the if you. if you look at the kind of what's happening beyond that, South Korea's,

you know, tourist numbers are going to go up because of this. Like this really, really successful, animation. And this is kind of what Soft Power does, right? It kind of goes beyond the hard dollars of how many tickets it sold. You know, if I were a Korean salesman, my emails might get opened more often. You know, it might even improve my dating chance, you know? One story I've done is about, you know, Western women coming to Korea after watching a lot of K-drama.

because they want to primarily date Korean men. So, you know, these kind of stuff do impact our daily personal lives. Firstly, are you benefiting from this? And secondly. I can't possibly comment. But he's smiling. Hey. He's laughing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I do wonder whether South Korea has achieved so much in recent years. winning all sorts of awards. I can't even remember all of them now. And but, you know, are there concerns that maybe South Korea has peaked?

I want both of your opinions, Fan? I would say the answer is no, because I feel. like there's still a lot of South Korean like culture that we don't know, or the we haven't seen. on the global stage yet, I think. like last week, I just went to this play in Singapore. starring some of the best South Korean actors. And like, that is something we haven't seen, really seen yet.

I think the theaters and then like this year, the South Korean author Han Kang won the Nobel Literature Prize, but we haven't really seen a lot. of Korean books being translated translated into English yet. So I think South Korea definitely has still has a lot to offer. Yeah. I would like to say that, you know, we we've been here before. We had this conversation before many, many times.

throughout the rise of the Korean Wave, you know, and every five years we ask, okay, can we succeed even more? Can we get even bigger? And each time, the answer was yes. You know, I felt like, you know, when when Korea's K-pop bands were really big in Japan, you know, that felt like a peak in the 90s. And then, you know, South Korea's movie does really big. And then when Parasite won Oscar, it really felt like I was hit in the head with a hammer. It felt like, this is this is the peak. How can we go any further? And then Han Kang wins Nobel Prize.

You know, I feel like a culture is not just movies and TV shows and music, right? There's like numerous genres where Korea stuff can succeed. And, you know, I remember asking years ago to people, hey, do you think there's any, any, you know, connection between K-pop success and K-drama success and K film success? And they'll be like, what are you talking about? They're completely different genres. They're not connected at all. But because in the last few years, these successes in such disparate genres.

are happening so quickly, right off the back of each other. Some people started going like, well, maybe there is something here, you know. And as other Asian countries try to do the same. Would you say that there are limits when it comes to Asian soft power. because of the, I guess, the language barrier and so on. You know, do you foresee any kind of challenges? Right now I don't see any. I think South Korea culture is so strong, so powerful. It's hard to to to imagine that there would be another contender to match.

the level of South Korea's success. I think right away. But having said that, I think, maybe there will be uh, they will, they will be different areas where other countries can um can surpass. or like have their own success. I think, like we said, um, in China's, uh, innovation and China's tech and.

how Chinese products are like winning the consumers around the world. I think that will definitely that is definitely something. that I think China can do because of its economic size. Right. And capability. So I think that is where China has a very good advantage. But Korea also does. I think one thing Korea does really well is. to take something that is very successful and kind of repackage it, give it a little twist and then sell it, you know. Um, and I'm, you know, I don't think that formula is going to be something truly,

truly exceptional. Of course, there's the artistry. There is something very Korean thing about it. But ultimately, I think other countries can come in and learn a few lessons. and find their own twist to kind of recreate that success. We'll leave it there. Thank you. Jake and Fan and thank you for watching. Click like and subscribe so you won't miss an episode. and send us your questions in the comment section as well. And I'll make sure that Fan and Jake answer some of your questions as well.

But for now, thank you so much for watching and see you next time.