Why are anti-migrant protests growing in South Africa? | Global News Podcast

Hello, welcome to the Global News. podcast from the BBC. I'm Ankit Desai. and today I'm joined by Pumza Fihlani, our correspondent in Johannesburg. We're. going to talk about the growing. anti-migrant protests that have swept. across the country in recent weeks. And. Pumza, I mean, this is something which. has really gripped the nation. But first. of all, just tell us what these protests. are all about. >> Uh to answer that question, let's give a. bit of context also about the makeup of. South Africa currently. Uh so South. Africa is currently home to about 3. million foreign nationals. These are the.

figures. But some estimates say this. could be much higher, that the number of. people that are not documented but are. in the country could run a lot higher. than that 3 million. Now usually when. foreign nationals come into South. Africa, they'll tend to settle in areas. where they prospects for employment, to. start businesses, and they'll tend to. live in uh areas where housing is more. readily affordable. So the townships, for example. Now this context is.

important because the majority of South. Africans find themselves in that setup. as well. This is where the majority of. black South Africans particularly live. They live in the townships still, and. they tend to be going for similar jobs. if you're talking about people that are. low-skilled labor. Now this is the. recipe that has brought about tensions. in some of these communities and these. protests that we've seen here in recent. weeks building up and culminating in. that massive demonstration just a few. days ago. Protesters, South African.

protesters particularly, are saying they. are being muscled out of jobs. They're. saying that they are being muscled out. of jobs by companies that are instead of. hiring them, are hiring undocumented. migrants so they can underpay them. This. is the claim. The other one is that they. are seeing firsthand a strain on public. services. This is state hospitals saying. it is very difficult to get proper. health care Um across hospitals in the.

country because that they are saying. that they are having to share these. limited resources with foreign. nationals. Now, it's a known phenomenon. here in South Africa that people from. neighboring countries, because of a. collapse in other countries, tend to. prefer to come and receive health care. here in South Africa, whether as a. short-term or because they are already. in country. So, these are some of the. two things that the protesters are. complaining about. >> And Pumza, this is something which has. really swept across the country, as we. mentioned at the start. Just tell us a.

bit about the atmosphere, not just in. some of the big cities like. Johannesburg, Cape Town, but but but in. some of the smaller areas, too. >> Look, it's something that really has. touched at. the tensions that exist in some. communities. Some have been simmering or. bubbling under for years, some for. months, but it's something really that's this. past week has created a sense a sense of. anxiety for some people, particularly. those who share these communities that.

I've just mentioned, particularly those. who find themselves living in the. township, who come face-to-face with. South Africans who are out of work and. believe they are the reasons that they. are out of work. We've seen for weeks. now. talks of this unofficial deadline that. was imposed by campaigners for all. undocumented. migrants to leave the country, saying. that they want to they want the. government to take the lead on this, and. they want to make sure that those people.

are repatriated. by their home countries, and if not, they are deported by South Africa. So, really just speaking to the heart of. people feeling frustrated South South. Africans feeling frustrated at what they. say is a lack of proper immigration. controls by the government, and foreign. nationals on their part feeling that. they are being scapegoated for uh. that exist, they say, around. unemployment, which they say they can't. solve and have no have no uh part in.

>> So, the government, no doubt under a lot. of pressure, what's their response been. to all of this? >> Look, they've tried to strike a balance. in their response, I've noticed. So, on. the one hand, they've said that they. understand the genuine grievances around. staggering unemployment levels. We're. talking about 30% of the country's. population is unemployed, and some. people say some organizations say those. figures could even be be much higher, and a big part of that population is. young people. Some of them are educated,

some are not educated, but they're. sitting at home, and then they are. unable to find jobs. So, the government. has said, "Look, we understand that. these these grievances are genuine, but. on the other hand, we will not allow. people to take the law into their own. hands." This is in response to sporadic. reports that we've seen of citizens. doing uh what you would call stop. searches on people that they find on the. streets and wanting them to present. proof of nationality and wanting to see. people's documentation to see, "Are you.

here in South Africa legally or not?". The government has said that is not. allowed, and anyone found to be doing. that will be uh will be arrested um and. charged with possible harassment and. similar charges. And then, on a broader. scale, uh the country's president, Cyril. Ramaphosa, um addressed the nation just. a few weeks ago um saying that they are. looking at changing tact a little bit, that they recognize that there is a. problem around immigration laws, and. some of the laws need to be tightened or.

better managed. So, if I could just give. you a quick sense here of what they're. talking about doing. They're saying. firstly, what they want to do is start. jailing people who employ undocumented. migrants. This is a serious uh they're. saying this is a serious offense, and. they want to be seen to be taking it. seriously. So, that's the first one. The. second they say they want to set up. courts which will be looking at. fast-tracking deportations of people who. are found to not have legal status in.

South Africa. So, bypassing some of the. delays that tend to happen in the. courts. The other big one is that they. want to relocate repatriation centers. which are normally found here in. Johannesburg, for example. They want to. move them and have them closer at border. posts so that it's an easier transit. between the border post into the. receiving country. And lastly, they say. they want to get um. better interaction and better.

cooperation from African governments. saying that for much too long South. Africa has borne a disproportionate. amount. of the burden of what happens when other. African countries' economies struggle. That migration tends to move down. towards South Africa and they're saying. that they are taking the strain for that. and need African governments to also. step up and help their citizens. >> Bonga, I guess we want to get a sense of.

how people who are being targeted are. feeling because this must be quite. intimidating and they really are at the. center and heart of what's going on. >> They certainly have. I mean, I was at. the protest earlier this week, this. nationwide protest that had been touted. for weeks. And it was really. disheartening to see people. reduced to two bags or a blanket who had. left their homes with whatever with. whatever belongings they could grab. fearing that something might happen. And.

on the part of the protest themselves, while they were largely peaceful around. the country, there were pockets of. crowds who really were angry. Um, angry. at the helplessness of the situation, angry at what they feel is the. government's failure to speedily address. this. So, really just an environment. creating an environment in some parts, certainly on the day that the protests. were happening, in some communities that. people are unwelcomed. And that is. something that um this foreign nationals. that I've spoken to have said they've.

grappled with, that they've lived here. for a very long time. Some, yes, have. said they do not have legal status, but. they've created homes here. So, it's a. very delicate thing that needs to be. managed. >> And we're also seeing people who are now. being forced to leave South Africa, but. they're also leaving some of their. family members behind as well. Have we. been hearing about some of their stories. because that's another gut-wrenching. part in all of this where families are. being separated because of this, and. some people are leaving and going back. to their home countries, but still.

leaving some members behind? >> Um yes, that's actually one of the areas. that I visited um earlier this week was. I went to the Malawi Consulate here in. Johannesburg where scores and scores of. Malawi nationals had fled um and taken. refuge there um fearing what may happen. over the next few weeks. They'd set up. camp there for a few days um at the. doorstep of the consulate wanting the. Malawi government to help get them home.

And some of the people that I spoke to. were saying were giving me examples of. how they'd separated from their partners. the day before um and they don't know. when they would see them again. So, the. how the logistics worked was a bus came. and took some people. The understanding. is they were taken to a repatriation. center. So, this would have been a group. of women and then men would have been. taken in a later bus. So, some of the. men that were left behind were concerned. that they don't know um what the makeup. of the repatriation center is when they. arrive there. So, they don't know if.

they were able to be reunited with their. wives and children or if their only. chance of being reunited will be when. they eventually land in Malawi. So, those sort of concerns for people. very palpable and and some people even. telling me there that look, they. understand some of them were confiding. saying, "We don't have the. documentation, but things have really. become so bad that we are willing to be. repatriated and will not return to South. Africa." Fearing that this might not be.

a short-term problem, that maybe this. might be a sign of the times globally, that the world is changing and and. people are wanting to be clearer on. people's legal status, whatever the. circumstances of what got them here. >> And finally, Pumza, what will this mean. for regional stability? South Africa. plays such a key role in the region as. we know, but the broader impact of these. demonstrations, what could it do to. impact South Africa's relationships with. other African countries nearby? >> Look, it's already strained relations.

with a few African countries. We've seen. what would would ordinarily be. behind-the-scenes discussions playing. out on social media with some African. countries, Ghana for example, accusing. South Africa of of turning a blind eye. to what they claim are abuses happening. in the country. So, the tensions there. now are diplomatic tensions, certainly. that will need to be smoothed out and. South Africa in the region has been. known as the sort of country that is. reconciliatory, that wants to reconcile.

and be friendly with all its neighbors. But on the other side though, and that's. something that President Cyril Ramaphosa. has. shown that he's willing to do to try and. mend those frayed relationships. But on. the other hand, he's also said in. addition to doing that, he will be. sending teams to the rest of Africa to. communicate that things need to change. He wants to communicate this new. strategy that the South African. officials want to now follow and get. explicit buy-in from African countries.

saying again it is. disproportionately burdened with having. to look after in quotes in quotes. the the continent and that African. governments need to be taking a. proactive stance on getting their. economies up and running so that people. do not need to flee for what they. consider better economic conditions. So. it's a twofold response so far but. certainly one where we saw the country's. president there seeming to hint at a.

slight shift of how they will be. negotiating with African governments. going forward. >> Yes, well this is a story I think which. is going to continue to rumble on for. the foreseeable future and possibly. something we'll revisit again. But thank. you so much for outlining what's. happening in South Africa for the time. being. Pumza, we appreciate your time. That's Pumza Fihlani, our correspondent in Johannesburg. Just. to remind you if you do want more global. news podcast content, do subscribe and. click on the link below. For now, we'll. see you on the next episode.