What we know about rift at top of the Taliban | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the Global News podcast on. YouTube where we go behind the headlines. of a story and tell you why it really. matters. I'm Ankur De Soy and on this. episode we are looking into an. investigation from our colleagues at the. BBC Afghan service. They've managed to. obtain a leaked recording of the leader. of the Taliban who warns that internal. divisions could bring down his. government. Now there seems to be two. competing factions in the Taliban. leadership and this has been a year-long. investigation from our colleagues at BBC. Afghan. And I'm really grateful that we.

have one of those involved in this. investigation alongside me now. Zia. Shahriar is the BBC Afghan forensic. reporter and joins me now. Zia, thank. you so much for your time. A fascinating. work that you and the team have been. putting together. Just kick things off I. guess by telling us a bit more about the. Taliban and some of the division that. seems to have arisen in there. So you. know the Taliban came to power in 2021. when the American troops left. Afghanistan and since then they have.

been running one of the most secretive. governments in the world. Not much is. known about them. We know that the. leader of the Taliban. does not show his face. Nobody I mean people have seen him but. there is no picture of him. There is. only two confirmed pictures. One that we. have in our piece. And he's. literally you know not showing up in TV. People are not easily seeing him in. public. So. and.

and also. they. there is not a very organized structure. of governance. that you could clearly understand what. is happening there. So you have to. really be focusing a lot, get into. details to know what is happening there. And. that's what we were trying to do. to to see what is happening, who is. running what. >> Trying to unpick some of the layers. >> Some of the layers and also because we. have audiences that say that we don't. even believe that the leader of the.

Taliban exists. Well why such secrecy. around his identity? I. mean. it has been security before but now. what the Taliban are explaining is that. he does show up in mosques, in madrasas. People are seeing him but he is he. thinks that showing up on TV is. haram or not religiously prohibited. So. he doesn't so it's kind of religious.

ideas well but obviously keeping himself. secure and also show giving a bit of. mythical image of. himself. So our investigation. is looking into. this one. So we. we can confirm completely that he does. exist. and we have talked to the sources who. have talked to him, who have been in his. gatherings, who have been attended.

all sorts of meetings around him. And so. we've very much looked into him and his. daily operation and his meetings and. stuff. And. how he has concentrated power in. Kandahar which is not the capital of. Afghanistan. It's the capital is Kabul. but Kandahar has always been a very. important. stronghold [clears throat]. of the Taliban for the last three. decades.

So he's staying there. He runs. Afghanistan from Kandahar and he has. transferred a lot of powers from Kabul. to Kandahar. So what we found out that. there are two groups in the leadership. of the Taliban. One based in Kandahar. led by Hibatullah Akhundzada surrounded. by. a lot of extremist. members of the Taliban who support his. strict. ideology of running the government,

strict. implementation of the morality law, the. religious laws across the country which. affects everybody but particularly women. and most importantly the education for. girls beyond 12th. year which has completely been banned. and also the university for women, higher education and a lot of. restrictions on women's working. So. half of the population of Afghanistan. are being affected hugely by these laws.

And we have these guys in Kabul, defense minister, interior minister and. deputy prime minister, Mullah Baradar. which many times Mr. Trump called him. Abdul and he knows only him because he. was. negotiating with the Americans in 2021. So these three guys but also quite a few. other of them that we call them Kabul. group versus Kandahar group. They are. showing more. flexibility towards the education of.

women, towards the. creating or building a normal. relationship with international. community, relaxing the morality law, the implementation of morality law and. they are not happy with the. concentration of power in Kandahar. because their authorities have been. undermined. And so these two groups now. we. through one year of investigation but. also what instigated our investigation.

was a leaked audio by the leader himself. who warns about internal division inside. the Taliban. And. and the Taliban is a group which has. been very famous for being united and. and their unity has been always their. strength. >> So how how has this come about this sort. of split in terms of the leadership and. and and this pursuit of power maybe? Yeah. So what. discussing with different sources from. both sides but also experts,

both Afghan, international, people who. know Afghanistan, the Taliban. They. believe that the people in Kabul, the. Kabul group, they're worried that the. status quo is not. sustainable. What they're what the. leader is doing he's detached from the. realities across the world and from the. realities inside Afghanistan but also. when it comes to the international. community which are completely.

standing on the idea that. women's. the treatment of the Taliban with women. is absolutely not acceptable. And we. know that the Taliban government after. four years, now five years I think, apart from Russia no country recognizes. their government. So Afghanistan is. ruled by a government which is not. internationally recognized. They don't. have their seat in the UN. And the Kabul. group, the. so-called moderate ones, although.

they're still very conservative, they're. still very but still They like to see. themselves as more progressive. >> They would sort of like to show that. one. Still you know long way to see if. that's happening but particularly in. these four areas that I mentioned, they're showing. green lights that they they will be more. flexible. They are more flexible. And. they're worried that if they don't bring. these changes, if the changes are not. brought, their government could topple. down or. they will not get recognition or.

something will happen that they will. also lose their authority, their power, their you know. legitimacy in in Kabul. There is one. more important thing in the piece that I. have to mention and that is the internet. shutdown that happened in September last. year across Afghanistan for three days. The country was totally disconnected. with the world. Not only internet but. the telephone was cut as well. So that was a really big thing and and. and we found out in the research, in our.

investigation, that. something happened here that was. unprecedented when it comes to the. Taliban's. history and structure. So this this was an order by the leader, by the leader of the Taliban from. Kandahar. And you know that the. structure there according to. religious structure the Taliban have. got, obedience of the leadership is. unquestionable. So when you are part of. the Taliban government or a member of. the Taliban, religiously you have to listen to the to.

the leader. Whatever he says and. whatever he does. And that's what he's. doing. I mean he's banned girls from. school and nobody can say anything. inside the Taliban. So when he banned internet, the Kabul. group. was. was very unhappy. We know that they. tried a lot to change to convince him. not to do this. And when he did this, these people got together in Kabul and. they reversed his decision, his order.

They said they asked the. communication minister to turn on the. internet and he said that the leader I. said don't worry, we are going to take. care of that one and this is impossible. It's going to be affecting our lives in. a way and the people's lives in a way. that. so this was the first time that an. important order by the leader was. reversed by the Kabul group. So. we. this this is an example how they are. trying to sort of portray themselves and. and show that they stand against it. But.

coming back to your question, the. Taliban responded they have also in the. past but also to this particular. investigation, the Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid. flatly denied that there is any internal. He's actually also tweeted after the. report saying same thing that it's not. true. We know that internal division is. very harmful. We know that it will. cause. things that has happened in the past, but he did say that there are obviously.

differences in ideas and opinions and as. he put it. it can happen in among family members as. well. So Zia, what could this mean then. I suppose for the for the people in. Afghanistan? What could be the. implications further down the line? So uh. as I mentioned it's. women are a sick half of the population. of Afghanistan and. and this could. uh. now that we have confirmed their. division and one important difference.

point is the education and work of women. in Afghanistan. Uh these. differences and division could. it's difficult to predict what happens. could cause the the leader eventually to. withdraw some of these policies and that. would mean a bit of. uh improvement in the situation of the. women or the Kabul group. strengthens themselves to to be able to. to do more about the rights of the women. and rights of the people as a whole. Uh. but also.

the. it it it gives. a picture an image of the situation. inside the Taliban so that the Afghan. people know who are who are the people. who or who are the leaders who are. ruling them, who's accountable, who or. who should they go after for. accountability if they are. And. and obviously you know more information. about how they're ruled. We've talked. about how the Taliban do operate in in. in a in a secret world so to speak.

because they want to protect their. identities. They want to. give to the rest of the world as much as. they want to, right? So in terms of. trying to pin down this story and how. you guys are able to get this sort of. information, how did you go about doing. that obviously without revealing too. much because it must be a difficult. story to pin down to to get that sort of. access and get that sort of deeper. understanding. Yeah, that's true. We we have spoken to more than a hundred. sources. during this investigation.

And. and we for their safety we have not. revealed their their names and their. identities. These are people inside the. Taliban. These are people former members. of the Taliban, experts, people who are inside. Afghanistan. and uh. and it took like hours or hundreds of. hours of telephone interviews, face-to-face interviews uh. trying to track down you know contacts.

You know, I mean there wouldn't have. been any. any members of our team Afghan team that. we haven't got their help through to. find people to talk to them. And. yeah, traveling inside Afghanistan, traveling across the world to different. cities in Middle East in Europe to find. these people to talk to them and to get. a precise. uh. uh picture of what is going on in the. situation. So yeah, it took a. really really a lot of work.

Zia, thank you so much for your time as. well. A really interesting. investigation. You can get more details. of this on the BBC News website. Zia. Shah. our BBC Afghan forensic reporter. If you enjoy world stories like this, do. check out our global news podcast. You. can download it wherever you get your. podcasts from. Do give this episode a. like and subscribe to our BBC News. YouTube channel. Thanks so much for your. company.