What could China look like after Xi Jinping? | Global News Podcast

Hello, I'm Celia Hatton and welcome to a. special edition of the Global News. podcast from the BBC World Service. We're focusing on China in this episode. In the near future, the top members of. China's Communist Party are meeting. behind closed doors. They're expected to. make decisions that will shape the. superpower for a long time to come. Namely, who's going to run the country. next? Well, China's powerful leader. Siginping has bucked tradition by. staying in power longer than any modern. leaders before him, and he hasn't yet.

named the next generation of young. officials who will run China. That could. change in the next few days and weeks. after that big meeting. She is staying. in office, but who's coming after him? So, in this special edition of the. Global News podcast, we're asking what's. next for China after C. [music]. And joining me to answer that question. and some questions that our Global News.

podcast audience have sent in. We're. joined by Steven McDonald. He's our. Beijing correspondent. Stephen, it's. really good to see you. You know, you. and I have known each other for ages, haven't we? >> Indeed. How are you going? >> Yeah. Good. Very good. Yeah, it's uh I. can see it's night time already in. Beijing. Sun has set. And also we're. joined by Shaun Yuan from our Global. China unit. Sean, thank you for joining. me here in the studio in London. >> Thanks so much for having me. I uh I. haven't seen you in a while in the in. the building either. >> I know. I know. This is it's a little. it's a little China reunion we've got.

going. >> finally. >> All right. Well, let's start off with. all of the drama that's been happening. within the Chinese Communist Party at. some of the top levels, but also at the. top levels of the Chinese military. Uh. and we've seen many of those people just. pushed out of their jobs. It's suddenly. announced that they are under detention. and then sometime later we'll get an. announcement that they've been expelled. from the party. In fact, Cinping has. expelled more top communist party. officials and highranking generals than.

anyone since Maong, that's China's. revolutionary leader. Stephen, can you. take us through all of this? What's been. happening? So the anti-corruption. crackdown, it goes right back to when. Xiinping first came to power and. [snorts]. we don't know how many people have been. caught up in this, but it seems like. it's millions now. It could be from a a. slap on the wrist to you end up in. prison. So a variety of punishments. And.

because this is all so opaque, we also. really don't know what anyone. specifically has been accused of. And. what I I should also stress is that this. isn't going through the courts, at least. not initially. This is a party. discipline procedure which gives the. inspectors incredible power. They'll. just grab someone off the street, take. them to a secret location, and they. could interrogate them for months on. end. They don't even have to tell their. families. And [snorts] then we we'll. just get an announcement. as you say,

this person has been taken down in the. anti-corruption. uh crackdown with with just the broadest. brush explanation of what they're said. to have done. Uh and they're never to be. seen of again. And because there's so. much corruption and because. I suppose the party could cobble. together a corruption case against. anyone pretty much. It seems that really. the question is not so much how corrupt.

certain people are but why certain. people are being taken out. And this is. what's led to all this discussion about. well potentially does Xiinping see. certain people as a threat or why this. person or not that person? Why are they. targeted in the anti-corruption. crackdown? And and it also tends to go. through sort of areas of the society. here. It'll be politicians one day and. there might be professors the next. And. at the moment the the emphasis is all on.

the military. You mentioned the you know. huge number of people who've been taken. down in the people's liberation army. Most significantly the body which is. probably the most powerful in the. country which is the central military. commission. Xiinping is the chair of. that body. It's supposed to be the seven. person body that runs the military. Well, five of those have gone down now. So now the central military commission. is a committee of two people right now. Xiinping and one other general. and. we're just waiting for new people, I.

guess, to be appointed to that body. >> I mean, it's pretty incredible to think. that the Central Military Commission, which runs one of the most powerful. militaries in the world, is is really. just running on a bit of a shoestring at. the moment. Sean, let's let's turn to. you. I mean, Stephen mentioned. anti-corruption, but on a political side, what do you. think is going on? Is is Cining clearing. house? Some might say. >> I think it's important to go back to. what Steven said earlier in terms of how. long this campaign had been ongoing. It.

came through almost right after Shajimin. came to power and it went through phase. as well because now we're everyone's. paying attention to the purges in. military for example the polio stand. polio uh committee all those high level. positions but I think it's important to. also bring um the audience back to the. days when at the very beginning in 20. 2012 2013 2014 a lot of doctors. professors those those kind of people. were being purged as well not. necessarily purged but kind of taken. into the uh anti-corruption campaign. even when we're back home A few years. ago for example I was talking to my.

relatives almost every single one in my. family knew about people who had been. snatched away by the communist party not. some of them knew exactly the reason why. corruption and that's the reason why a. lot of people are quite supportive of. the campaign at the beginning but now as. the as the campaign dragged on it became. much much more political as Steven was. saying now we have a lot of military. leaders being purged and that goes back. to what you're saying earlier you asking. earlier in terms of whether Xiinping is. doing some sort of a political purge I. think um at the beginning she was very.

adamant on rooting out corruption in the. party and then he saw that when he was. before he became president and that's. the reason why at the very beginning a. lot of people are very supportive of. this because people could see the. damages that corruption had brought to. the Chinese society not just the uh the. party uh I think there's also a a chance. a lot of analysts are saying that for. Shiinqing to sort of root out uh voices. that are you know uh not in agreement. with So all those to say uh I think it's.

a combination of genuine anti-corruption. campaign and the kind of clearing house. to bring loyalty back to him. >> It's also all of this comes at a really. interesting time in China just ahead of. a really important series of communist. party meetings, closed dooror meetings. But then leading into next year, we're. expecting Cining to enter his fourth. term as as the leader of the country. You know, an unprecedented fourth term. This is something that I talked about. more with Damian Ma. He's from the US.

think tank Carnegie China, which is. based in Singapore. Let's hear what he. had to say. >> The way I think about Chinese politics. always is that uh uh uh the absence of. evidence doesn't necessarily mean. evidence of absence. Meaning that. doesn't mean that there is nothing going. on. There's usually is something going. on. The horse trading, the jostling. I. think the big question of course is you. know uh what you know how how's the new. generation of leaders uh how are they. going to fare uh in the upcoming uh.

political transition which will be um uh. October of next year uh typically and uh. like you said earlier there's going to. be a lot of vacancies there's going to. be a lot of seats that's going to be. filled and so looking at the prospects. of you know who's moving up who's moving. up who's going down this is really the. this is really the time for It's the. unofficial start of the Chinese campaign. season to the extent there is a campaign. season in China. Uh it's not really an. election obviously. It's more like a.

selection, but it is still quite intense. leading up to it. And I think we're. going to start to see it getting more. intensified uh you know after the. plenum. The big question isn't whether. Xi Jinping is going to serve an. unprecedented fourth term. Um I've seen. no I've seen no indications that that. he's not going to. Uh but the question. is what happens in the ensuing five. years which are you know uh one full. term for the general secretary uh is. that you know he's uh as of 2027 he will. have done 15 years at the helm and so by.

2032 it will be 20 years for Xi Jinping. at the top uh I think he's outlasted you. know Angula Merkel who I think served. for for something like 18 years uh and. uh so he's one and so uh the big. question surrounding this transition is. it's not going to be evident right away, but it's looking at uh clues and signals. about what his plan is, what his. succession plan is essentially. And. that's a big uncertainty and that's. going to profoundly shape China's.

political future because uh that is that. is the biggest looming question in. Chinese politics. Succession has always. been a challenging thing in the in the. communist party system and they've had. different models. But if you boil it. down, China's really had only two models. essentially. One is the Maadom model and. one is the Den Shiaoping model. The. Maadom model is you basically serve, you. know, until until you cannot physically. And the other model is you kind of you. kind of step down like Den Shia did, but.

then you actually um have still have, you know, full authority and seniority. behind the scenes. So you're still. essentially uh you know the top dog but. you formally step down from some of your. positions. Everything in between are. kind of variations of those two models. So so like those are the two kind of. bookends. And so the question uh you. know I think if you're really observing. Chinese politics closely over the next. year is are there signs indicating it's. going to be one or the other model in. terms of how uh how the top is thinking.

about succession? >> Damen Ma speaking there from Carnegie. China. uh Steve McDonald, you know, he. raises some some good points about how. China is is going to look moving. forward, how it might move through what. could be a a quite a turbulent period, you know, based on what we've just. talked about these detentions, so many. top party leaders and military generals. placed under investigation. Does that. give you any indication of of how things. how Beijing politics uh might move ahead.

in the next few years? >> Well, funnily enough, and this is going. to sound kind of bizarre to some, succession is is dangerous for Xiinping. Now, at the moment, you think of him, he's all powerful. No one would even. dream of questioning him in the upper. layers of the party. certainly, you. know, they wouldn't even speak to. someone else about the possibility of. challenging him. But imagine if you're. him and you've punished millions of.

people and they've all got families. Imagine all those people out there who. hate your guts. Now, if you step down, someone else comes along and all of a. sudden they might get pressure from. others to, you know, what what about. Xiinping's corruption? Let's go after. him. Because like I was saying before, you can cobble together anything you. like in terms of a party controlled, you know, anti-corruption investigation. So he's got to make sure that whoever's.

in power isn't going to come after him. afterwards. So he needs not only that. person to be loyal, but some sort of. assurityity that they won't be pressured. by others to come after Xiinping and his. family, if you know what I mean. Stephen, I mean, let's let's talk about. this possible next generation of. leaders. Now, I know we're not expecting. any names to be announced right away. It's not really how China works, but we. should start to get an indication of who.

the rising stars are in the party over. the next year or so. You know, what can. you tell us about what this next. generation is going to be like? What do. we know about them just based on their. age and and their their background? I. think the age and background thing is. interesting because if you consider not. individuals but whole sways of people. like as you say a generation now she's. generation they're the last ones to have. some sort of a connection to the Mao era.

I mean she's father was you know there. he was a gorilla fighter side by side. with Mao both his father and even. Xiinping himself were taken down by Mao. so there's big memories there of that. but the people coming through I I. suppose Es if you said China's. generation X which is the sort of sixth. generation I think they talk about of. leaders. This is people who imagine. they're coming through in the 80s at a. time of opening up here a a more.

experimentation with democratic. processes freedoms in the media. Now it. all came to a dramatic. bloody end with the crackdown in. Teneamman Square. But that was the these. were the formative years of those. people. And then if you look further. forward to the a more even more recent. generation and those people going to. start to be uh appointed they are in. some ways less inclined to democratic. reforms because they've grown up even. after all of the tenementan crackdowns.

So if you look at people's life. experiences it [snorts] is you know. something that you can consider in terms. of shaping the way they see the world. Now, that said, I should couch this that. people shouldn't think, "Oh, great. All. these people are at the next lot. They're coming through. They've had all. these years of China opening up, therefore they're going to open China up. again." No, not necessarily. Because. once you get to that level of being. appointed, say, to the central. committee, you're a hardened party.

cadra. like they've shown their loyalty. time and time again, especially in this. period when Xiinping's taken people out. left, right, and center. So in one way. we might think of them as well certainly. they're not going to be as attached to. the old Mau era stuff and they have had. experiences of China opening up but it's. going to be interesting to see that you. know if that leads to them wanting more. of that given the fact that Xiinping.

since the Olympics has tightened the. screws really he's shut the place down. again he's closed off reforms he's made. the party something, you know, put the. party right back at the center of. production and all this sort of thing. So, it's going to be a very interesting. time indeed. And it all starts with this. meeting, this pleenum when we're going. to see some new appointments and then. even more at the party congress next. year. >> Yeah, quite a few. Right. So, I know. that, you know, twothirds of the of the. Communist Party's central committee. that's got 200 people in it. That's one.

of the top committees. Twothirds of. those people are expected to retire. So. we we really are going to start seeing a. whole new generation come in. Sean, what. do you think? >> Yeah, I think uh I I just want to go. back to what Steven was said earlier in. terms of kind of uh applying this broad. stroke towards the entire generation. saying those people were born in the 60s. or 70s. Therefore, their political view. must be significantly different or. similar to the generation before. Uh I. think it's important to know that it is. not a monolithic generation. um the same.

people who went to Tment Square to. protest the same age that's those people. who gone down them you know so I think. it's important to to to notice that um. after all the purges that's been going. on after all the party house clearing. has been going on uh a lot of people who. will potentially be the successor to. Shinping will have been vetted. personally by himself so even if we have. people who are more for example pro-. reform pro more liberalism uh market and. all those sort of. during the entire vetting process which.

is very secretive and enigmatic um those. people might be weeded out and also I. think it's important to note that um the. president the chairman the the position. of the uh of the country and the. communist party is not necessary. position itself of course according to. the constitution is a state organ what. that means that there's going to be a. continuum of policies uh that come from. maong all the way to shining up until. the next generation of leaders as well. and even we're talking about for example. maon Xiaoing deniaing to uh Janzaming.

all those kind of generation shift even. though there might be some changes we. are seeing a continuum of policies so I. think it's important to note that. >> I think it's tricky right because I. think a lot of this process is hidden. from us you know we've mentioned quite a. few times that this is a this is there's. going to be a series of meetings that. takes place behind closed doors uh. Cinping is vetting a lot of these new. candidates that's all taking place in. secret so I think this idea that it's. not a monolithic group of people coming. in as this next generation. It's really.

difficult for us to see because when we. see these leaders on television in these. Chinese state media broadcasts, they do. look quite similar, right? They're all. in very similar suits. They're all. looking very serious. They're in. perfectly straight lines. We don't get. to hear a lot of those internal debates. And I think that's why it's so tricky. for us to kind of pick this apart in. terms of what these people are actually. like and what the conversations are that. go on behind closed doors. No, absolutely. I mean, I think there. there's some symbolic moments. For. example, you have the you have the.

standing the polio standing community of. people walking on the stage and that's. the first time the entire nation has. known uh who the next generation of. leader will be. And that's very. different from all the other democratic. countries we've seen so far. Like it. China is such an important power uh both. economically and politically and. militarily to select a leader behind. such closed doors not just to the. outside world in you know on the. international stage but for people. inside China as well. that that's the. reason why it's it's fertile ground for. rumors and speculations and that's.

exactly the reason why we're talking. about this because nobody really knows. and that's that's what's intriguing. about it as well. >> Um Sean, you brought up rumors and. speculation and Stephen, I have to kind. of address one elephant in the room. right now because there's been a lot of. talk around Ping himself and his health. uh and reports that maybe he isn't as. healthy as the party says that he is. We. have to remember he's 73. Can you take. us through that story a little bit right. now and and what's reportedly being said.

about him? Well, it is being said about. him, but what reportedly might be. happening? >> Well, one thing that set the tongues. wagging, if I could put it that way, was. when he was on a trip recently and he's. and he doesn't travel that much, right? But he's coming out of the plane and. walking down the stairs next to his wife. and she's sort of holding his arm and. helping him kind of step down the plain.

stairs and people like, "Oh my. goodness." You know, who knows what what. does that mean about Xiinping's health. Now look, he might just have a sprained. ankle. I mean, you just never know what. it is. It could be nothing. It could be. absolutely nothing at all. Um, but every time we see something along. those lines, uh, people are all of a. sudden worried. I mean, he turned up at. one point in Tibet, I think it might. have been last year and and he was. looking terrible and people thought, "Oh, no. Look, she's he's got some. health issues, but it just could have.

been altitude sickness." I mean, I've. been to Lassa. You turn up there and you. all of a sudden finding it hard to. breathe and that, so it's perfectly. normal. Um, and then the next time you. see him, he looks totally fine. So, I. mean, who knows? >> Let's turn now to a question that we got. from one of our global news podcast uh. audience members. Uh, this is Jan, who's. a listener in Europe. Here's the. question read out by one of our. producers. I am particularly interested. in finding out who are the potential.

successes to Sinping. I can imagine that. the battle for the position must be. fierce and ferocious. Generally, autocratic dictators tend to change. their mind about their successor because. it reminds them of their soon to come. demise. Look at Rupert Murdoch. Steven, we brought up a fellow Aussie, Rupert. Murdoch. Do you think that's what's. happening? Are we Is it a sort of. succession like situation going on, do. you think, within the party? >> If you were putting yourself forward as. a possible successor, you wouldn't put.

yourself forward as a possible. successor, if you know what I mean. Because if you look even remotely like. you'd be threatening Xiinping, you are. gone. I mean, he even speaks publicly. about u sort of castigating party. leaders who show off, who sort of. exaggerate their abilities and this type. of thing. So, you've got to be very. careful. I mean, I I think if you wanted. to be considered, you just got to try. and do the best job you could do and. hope that in the washup you'll come.

through at the end. I mean, it it used. to be different. There used to be these. factions within the party and you you'd. be, you know, moving within those. factions to try and. jostle for the right position to get the. right job which leads this job leads to. that job and up you go. But now, oh, I. think you'd be you'd be very careful if. you had like if you honestly thought you. wanted to take over. Uh, and look, think. about it. I mean, Xiinping could be the. leader for another 10 years. Who knows.

what's going to happen in all that time. So even if you sort of you went ahead at. one stage, I mean it was an interesting. question in that way. People do come. into favor and you think, "Oh, they're. they're coming next, but uh-uh, you. know, next thing they're down the it's. like snakes and ladders. Down the slide, down you go.". >> We've been talking a lot about what's. been happening inside China and the. kinds of issues that he and his possible. successors are contending with there. But let's focus now on how China deals.

with the outside world. Uh we have one. audience question. Let's take a listen. >> Hi, this is Richard from Cape Town, South Africa. I wonder what are China's. medium and long-term ambitions within. Africa in particular, how they either. align or conflict with the ambitions of. Russia and also the United States of. America and Europe. Sean. >> um I think it's important to know that. Africa is sort of the crown jewel of.

China's overseas expansion. Uh and it. was the first continent where China's. saw as the overseas market [snorts] when. the the whole idea of belt road. initiative was uh was was introduced. Africa was the focus. Uh we have the uh. for example the railway in in um in in. Kenya and in Ethiopia and we have dams. being built and we have EVs for example. being exported to the continent. All all. those things are very important for uh. for China's expansion. And uh over the. past few years, I think that that. relationship has shifted fundamentally.

in a way that uh we're no longer uh. seeing a lot of big ticket. infrastructure items uh being. implemented in Africa anymore. We're. seeing small and beautiful projects. We're talking about importing avocados. from Kenya, for example, or uh building. ships for uh for for certain u villages. that they can go shipping. Those kind of. small things. And uh earlier this year. during the um forum on China Africa. cooperation, China waved tariffs for all. the countries that have diplomatic. relations with China. But again that was.

more of a symbolic movement because even. before the uh the gesture uh more than. 90% of the uh the goods were already uh. tariff free but that does come and show. how important Africa has been for um for. China. But now moving on to the second. part of the question when the listener. was talking about uh how it uh sort of. collides with the interest of Russia, Europe and the United States. I think go. going to different uh different. countries. The first one Russia um. Russia's ambition in Africa is very. different from China's ambition. uh.

we've tal we've been seeing a lot of for. example Vakna groups and uh in in the. Sahel uh region and uh Russia's focus. has been predominantly security- based. very military based and now China. obviously I'm not saying China does not. want to get involved militarily in. Africa because we do have the only. overseas um uh military base of China in. Djibouti uh that was opened in 2017 uh. and uh you also have a bunch of private. security companies not mercenaries that. Russia uh deployed to Africa but private.

the security companies were there to. secure the interest of Chinese. establishments there uh either. stateowned enterprise or uh or. infrastructure projects. So those things. are still there. Um but knowing that. China and Russia are good buddies uh. Shinping and Vladin Putin they are. really good friends. They could very. well work together. Uh for example after. France withdrew from the Sahar region. Vagnner quickly took over. Russia was a. major influence in in that region now. And with that comes with certain level. of stability and China is able to. exploit that uh security uh stability.

And that's the same thing with um with. America for example. The US brokered the. deal peace deal between uh Rwanda and. DRC earlier this year. And then during. the conflict um a lot of Chinese gold. mining industry uh uh participants for. example the uh the the artisan uh gold. miners or uh just stateowned enterprises. they had to evacuate uh certain eastern. part of DRC. But now after the uh the. peace deal was brokered by the US, China. Chinese uh uh business were able to go.

back as well. So I think when it comes. to Africa, China has always been sort of. the uh the the defending champion of the. uh of the overseas influence and then ch. um the US, Europe and Russia, they're. kind of trimming uh uh coming into this. into the continent trying to challenge. certain positions of China. But at the. end of the day, I think it's important. to know that we should not strip agency. away from Africa. Those African African. countries themselves are also coming up. with their own ideas of what kind of. relationship they want to build with.

China. And that's reason why saying that. we're in Angola for example, uh Angola. is actively trying to pursue more. economic collaboration within China, but. at the same time is welcoming us to. build a railway that connects the. corridor into DRC for the mines. So I. think it's all of this is I think it's a. lot of people are saying that oh China. is doing this, Russia doing that and the. US is doing that, Europe is doing that. Um but the end at the end of the day I. think African nations they are. reclaiming their agency and uh that's. the fundamental shift that we've been.

seeing in the past few years as well. On. a bleeer note, both China and Turkey are. accused of inflaming. encouraging some conflicts there by. selling arms and especially military. drones to Africa. So according to some. analysts, uh the the flooding in of. these Chinese and Turkish drones has. made some conflicts even worse in. Africa. So it's not all rosy, that's for. sure. >> Yeah.

>> Okay. Maybe that's a good time for us to. turn to another part of the world where. China is accused of exhibiting some. assertive behavior, some might say. Let's hear a question from one of our. audience members in the Philippines. >> I am deeply concerned with Chinese. aggression towards our country. [snorts]. Just this week, the Chinese ambassador. Jin Kuan made a controversial statement. regarding the China's use of force.

and how they could easily defeat the. Philippines if they chose to do so. Given this context, uh how would a. change in China's leadership uh worsen. or improve the situation? >> Sean, let's go to you first with this. one. I mean, do you think do you sense. that a lot of China's foreign policy is. down to Cining himself, that he directs. a lot of it? Meaning, if there was.

another person sitting in that seat, would we expect some kind of change? I. just wonder how personal we think this. might be. >> Um, Shujimin does dictate a lot of. transform policy. Uh, and that's that's. quite clear. Uh, even even though he. himself might not come off as someone. who uh has this kind of personal. charisma uh like Putin or even Trump uh. does. Uh he speaks of Trump in a certain. way. He speaks of Putin in a certain. way, but in a very stoic in a very stoic.

way. not necessarily, oh, he's my best. buddy and then we're going to be BFFs. BFFs together, but it's more like he his. his decision is very calculated. And but. when it comes to I think when it comes. to the Philippines, it's um it's it's a. bit different because there the the the. aggression does not come exclusively. from the Navy. And a lot of people were. saying like for example going back to. what we talked about earlier in terms of. the military purges a lot of uh a lot of. people are speculating oh if the uh the. purge in the central uh military. commission is going to affect China's. policies when it comes to the.

Philippines especially in South China. Sea. Um the thing is that most of the. aggression has been carried out by uh. coast guard and militias uh and those. people do not directly answer to uh to. to the navy. Not to say those people uh. not to say shining does not know about. the existence. There might be some. encouragement. there might be some. acques essence but um the the purge in. the military itself does not directly. affect China's policy when it comes to. the Philippines. The listener was asking. whether a change of president is going. to change the behavior change the policy.

China exhibits towards the Philippines. of the or the world in general. Uh. frankly I don't think so. Um the um the. the the the policy people the policy. China adopts towards South China Sea is. very different from the policy say. Africa. it is literally at the doorstep. Um, and the the the the security in. South China Sea affects directly how. China is going to be able to engage with. Taiwan, engage with the with the rest of. the world. And that's reason why even. during ne negotiation between China and.

and the US. Taiwan has always been a big. part of it just because both countries. know how important this region is to. China and then coupling with the fact. that US and the Philippines have certain. have certain treaties and then how that. is going to be uh how it's going to be. changed is not necessarily dictated by. who the president is. It's a long. lineage of um of domestic policies of uh. uh China's claim over these territories. Those things will not change simply. because we have a new president. I want. to finish off by asking Stephen and.

Sean, both of you, why do you think. we're so fascinated with with Siginping. as a as a character? You know, why is. this man somebody who we speculate so. much about even though honestly we know. so little about him as a person? >> I think that's exactly the reason why. we're speculating so much because we. know so little for this person who is. also so important. Shimi barely gives. press conference for example like he the. last time I remember him giving. interview was before he be he was the. president and over the past 10 years.

barely any public appearance where he. actually talked to people even though. when when he was in the White House for. example there was a state dinner um and. uh before that the the press conference. not was not present because a lot of a. lot of reporters oh maybe maybe this is. a chance to actually talk to him and get. to ask some questions but that never. really happened. So with all the enigma. that's sort of surrounding this. important figure. Of course it it would. be it would be intriguing. I I I am. personally intrigued by his life as. well. Every I think Steven is everyone. who covers China wants to know exactly.

what's going on in his head. And that's. the reason why there's so many podcasts. or uh articles titled oh what is Ximin. thinking before he goes to sleep. Nobody. knows. But that's exactly the reason why. everyone was intrigued. >> I think that's also why we're intrigued. about how his how he might exit the. scene. That's also big question. Uh. Steven, what do you think? >> Yeah, I mean a guy certainly keeps his. cards close to his chest, doesn't he? [laughter] I mean, you compare him to. other leaders like Jung. I I mean there. he is singing songs and putting on hats.

and having a beer and, you know, chewing. out the Hong Kong media and. didn't mind being really colorful. And. then you got she's just like nothing. You know, it's like she's happy face, she, you know, sad face. They're all the. same. You know, you never you never see. any uh change in his mood or anything. like that. You You know, it is. interesting because when you speak to. people who have had anything to do with. him, like I I'll give you a little. example. Years ago, he went to Australia.

and he's been to all over Australia. He. went there a lot as a younger politician. and has also been there as a senior. politician. And at one point, he said, "Oh, he's really interested in. Aboriginal art." And so they took him. out to this remote area to show him. these ancient cave paintings because. he's fascinated by that. Now, it's sort. of amazing in a way that he and the. party doesn't show that side of him. I. mean, why not? I mean, that's quite. endearing, wouldn't wouldn't that make. him more more of a warm figure or what.

have you? And yet they don't want it. They don't want to give up anything. because I suppose any sign of weakness. or anything that could make him seem. anything other than completely. infallible. Uh they're worried about or. certainly he seems to be worried about. and yeah that's why he's not giving. anything away. And it and as you've both. said that's why we're fascinated by him. and want to try to understand what is. going on inside that mind. I mean, look, he's got one of the most important jobs.

in the world. He's one of the two most. powerful people in the world, and we. know so little about him. >> If you want to get in touch, you can. email us. Our details are below. I'm. Celia Hatton. Thanks for joining us. Bye-bye. [music].