Was Alexei Navalny killed by a dart frog toxin? | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the Global News podcast on. YouTube, where we go behind the. headlines. Hello, I'm Janat Jalil and. today we're looking at accusations by. five Western European countries that. Russia poisoned the opposition leader. Alexi Nalli with a rare lethal toxin. that's usually found in one frog species. in South America. Mr. Nalli died two. years ago while incarcerated in a. Siberian penal colony at the age of just. 47. The Kremlin denied that it killed.

him. But we're joined by our world news. correspondent Joe Inwood. And Joe, what's emerged? >> We found out from five European. intelligence agency's foreign officers. that they had investigated samples from. the body of Alexi Nalli and they had. discovered an incredibly rare and. incredibly obscure toxin in those. samples. And they say that this led them. to the conclusion that the only possible. way that he died was deliberate. poisoning and that deliberate poisoning. must have been done by the Russian.

state. >> And there have been accusations in the. past that the Russian state has poisoned. its critics. But this is a very unusual. poison. Tell us more about it. Yeah. So, this is a poison that is only found in. nature on the back of a ar a poisoned. dart frog, a poison arrow frog that's. found in Latin America. Now, it's called. Antony's poison arrow frog. We got that. from the foreign office. They wouldn't. tell us anything else about how they. discovered this. But just to explain to. to listeners to viewers that this is a.

it's a tiny little amphibian. It lives. in small areas of jungle in Ecuador, in. Peru, and it's about 2 to 3 cm long. It's a rather beautiful little creature. as these Ecuadorian or these dart frogs. often are. It's got a kind of deep. reddish brownie kind of back. It's got. white stripes. It's got dots all over. it. It's got these squat little legs. And the key point here is there is no. way that one of these is found in. Siberia. This is only found in the. jungles of Latin America. >> And it only produces this poison in.

certain circumstances. >> Yeah, that's really important. the they. think that the reason they don't quite. know about these with the exact frogs. There's still a bit there's a bit of a. mystery here, but they think that there. is something in their food that is what. leads them to be poisoned. So there are. a scientists say there's variations in. the severity of the toxin that's. produced on these frogs depending on. where they are found. And when they're. found in captivity, there's no toxin at. all. It is astonishingly. dangerous. So I think what it is more. than being astonishingly dangerous, it's.

astonishingly rare. And this kind of to. come back to the point, the only way you. find this is either in the jungles there. or you can synthesize it. And they think. that I think probably what it's assumed. is what the Russians would have done and. this is the accusation from the British. government is they synthesized it. somewhere and used it and that's how. they killed Alexi Nalli. >> Yes. Because it would be a lot of. effort, wouldn't it, for a Russian spy. to go to the jungles of South America to. find these frogs and extract the poison. So, so the the suggestion is that this. was some kind of state sponsored lab.

because the the chemistry involved is so. complicated that that's the only way it. could be done according to these five. western governments. >> Yeah, exactly. According to the. statement, so um the British foreign. secretary of Cooper was the one that. made the statement initially saying it. was only the Russia only Russia that had. basically the motive, the access to Mr. Nalli and the capabilities to do this. It's I mean, of course, there isn't. 100% proof beyond any reasonable doubt, but they say all this is unbelievably. strong circumstantial evidence, and.

that's why they've come to the very. definite conclusion they have. >> And what has the Kremlin had to say. about this this latest evidence that's. been presented by European nations about. this lethal frog toxin? >> So, firstly, we should say they've. always denied it. They denied at the. time that he they had killed him. They. said he died of heart failure. Now, normally I like to try and memorize. quotes before I read them to you. But. this one from the Russian embassy in. London. I am going to have to read out. off my phone because they accused the. West of feeble-mindedness. He said it. was the feeble-mindedness of Western.

fabulists and they accused them of. necrop. Now, I'm not entirely sure what. that is, but that was the quote from the. Russian embassy in London. And Maria. Zakarava, who's a prominent government. spokesperson, um, she said that these. were the tales and statements. They're. an information campaign aimed at. distracting attention from the West's. pressing problem. >> And I know this might be a hard question. for you to answer, Joe, but why why. choose this poison of all poisons? >> Well, there's two questions here. Why. kill Mr. Nalli? That's a slightly easier. question to answer. We can come on to in.

a bit. Why use this poison? I mean, the. speculation is the suggestion. Firstly, we should say we don't know for certain. It could be that there was some, you. know, some logical reason for it from. their point of view. But I think what a. lot of people are saying is this sends a. message. if you want to and and this is. something that Russia has for when maybe. and this is all you know getting a bit. dark here but when there would have been. a more straightforward way to murder. someone doing something that really. sends a signal that really says you know. whether it is gunning down a prominent.

opposition figure just outside the. Kremlin whether it's using pelonium 210. on Alexander Livvenenko it's thought. that they put pelonium 210 this highly. highly radioactive substance on a teacup. or whether you know with the the. scriiles in Salsbury, another. high-profile Russian defector or. opponent of the government, and they. used um Novachok, a nerve agent. These. are not obvious ways to do things. And. so, I think the suggestion is that by. doing it this way, it sends a signal. And that signal is that the Russian.

government is capable of of doing. anything. >> And turning to the why Mr. Nalli that. probably is a lot easier to answer as. you say because he was a very prominent. critic of Vladimir Putin exposed a lot. of corruption in the Russian elite and. um he had already been poisoned before. >> Yeah. So he also was poisoned it's. thought with no um that was according to. the German hospitals that tested him or. looked after him and that was I think in. 2020. It left him really fighting for.

his life. He really clearly knew that he. was if not signing his death warrant, he. was very much risking his life when he. went back to Russia. And sure enough, he. was arrested pretty much straight off. the tarmac. I think actually the footage. is him coming through passport control. and there are police officers there. They arrest him and he never saw freedom. again. >> I mean, I think at the time a lot of. people were struck by his bravery. because he narrowly survived this. assassination attempt with Novichok and. yet he, as you say, decided to go back. to Russia. Just just tell us about Mr.

Nalli and the impact he had on Russia. back then and still has today two years. on from his death. >> Yeah. So he he was a focal point for. people who wanted to oppose the Kremlin. He he as I said exposed you know what. the the the corruption of the regime. He. these there's a very famous video they. put out of showing the this huge palace. that Vladimir Putin had built for. himself. It was watched hundreds of. millions of times very quickly and to.

the huge embarrassment of the Kremlin. and I think he was just seen as a a. really articulate and as I said not not. without you know controversy and. criticism of him but from many different. sides but a kind of a a powerful. opponent of the Kremlin someone they. they could rally behind. He is still. someone I think who has that impact. Of. course, it's been lessened. You know, he. he can't contribute anymore. But it was. a really powerful video he made, a. documentary, I think it was, that was. filmed obviously before he died. And he.

spoke directly to the camera. He said. that when they if they kill me, I think. he even said, "When they kill me." He. certainly spoke often about the fact. that he was likely to die in prison. He. said, "All that will do is it will show. us that we are strong and you must keep. fighting." And it's no coincidence that. European nations chose the security. conference in Munich this weekend to. accuse the Kremlin of killing Mr. Nalli. >> Yes. So the Munich security conference. that we've just had is was nearly 2. years for to the day since Mr. Nalli.

died. And in fact the day we're. recording this is exactly two years. Of. course people may be listening later but. we are speaking as it is two years to. the day. Um, it's worth I think the the. reason it was significant is because. Julia Navalia, his his widow, was at the. Munich Security Conference on the day. that his death was announced. She spoke. on stage clearly very emotional. She. couldn't confirm that it was the case, but she gave her initial reaction. So, this is an event which is associated.

with him and with her. And I think it's. no coincidence they picked this time to. mention it again or to to re release. these findings because they knew it. would have the impact that they've had. >> And what are the consequences if any. likely to be for the Kremlin? >> Long answer short, very little. I mean. the there's talk of increasing. sanctions. There's talk I mean when uh. when we saw the Salsbury poisoning. diplomats who the government's accused. of being spies were kicked out of the. country. They've talked about referring. them to international bodies for the.

prohibition of chemical weapons. They. say it's a breach of that. But in truth, we're already seeing fullscale Western. diplomatic action against Russia. If. there are more levers they can pull, they'll be pulling them probably because. of the war in Ukraine and many many. other reasons that they have to. criticize West, you know, the the. Russian government. It's difficult to. see what really really impactful um kind. of consequences or or um sanctions they. they could pull, but we will wait and. find out.

>> Joe, thank you. Joe Inwood with us here. And if you like this episode, please. subscribe to us here on YouTube. And if. there are any other stories you'd like. us to cover, just leave a comment below. And if you want more international news, you can always download the global news. podcast from wherever you get your BBC. podcasts.