The end of social media's 'Wild West' era? | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the Global News podcast on. YouTube. I'm Ankur Desai. On this. episode, I'm joined by the BBC's. technology editor, Zoe Kleinman. Zoe, there's been this huge landmark case in. America. It's been described as the end. of the era of impunity for social media. companies. Please explain more. >> So, at the heart of this is the story of. a 20-year-old woman who we are we know. as Kaylee. We don't know her name. And. she says that she discovered YouTube at. the age of six and Instagram at the age. of nine. And she spent an awful lot of.

time online. At some point she was. spending 16 hours a day on these. platforms. And she suffered mental. health problems. She suffered. depression. She suffered. body dysmorphia. She had suicidal. thoughts. And she blames the tech. companies for that. And in their. defense, the tech company said she had a. difficult childhood. She was already. dealing with a lot of problems and she. went to social media to escape from. those problems. But the jury has found. in her favor and said that the.

the platforms were engineered to keep. her on them for as long as possible and. that she was coming across being shown. content in that time that made her feel. worse. >> How much of a game-changing moment do. you think this is in the in the tech. world? >> I think it's huge. I mean, anyone who. doom scrolls will tell you that they. >> of it. >> You're guilty. There you go. You may. even have said yourself that you find it. addictive, right? But it has not been a. term that the tech companies have used. And what they have been very careful to.

say over the years is that they're. trying to to give you a fun experience, but also a responsible one. And they're. putting in all these tools and they have. all this moderation and that, you know, they're trying to give you a product. that is good and that you, you know, like to spend time on because it's. enjoyable. But this verdict changes that. narrative because now a jury has come. back and said, you know, there are. deliberate design practices built into. these platforms to keep people there, especially young people, and the tech. companies have not done enough, even.

though they may say they have, to. protect them. What I think is going to. happen, you know, not immediately. because there's going to be appeals, there's going to be further legal. processes, both companies, Google and. Meta, say they don't agree with the. verdict, but things are going to have to. change. It's often called the wild west. I've been doing this job for so long and. I've heard that so many times, you know, the internet is a wild west. >> Mhm. >> And and it's still gets banded about. And and maybe this actually really is.

the moment when it stops being the wild. west. We've already been through a. period, haven't we, where social media. is under increasing scrutiny. We've seen. it banned in Australia for under 16s. The UK is thinking about it. Other. countries, like Greece, are also. thinking about it. And this verdict just. adds weight to that argument, doesn't. it, that children shouldn't be there. And then what happens if the court says, "Right, to take out all the features. that keep people online." Now, what are. they? You've got your auto scrolling,

you've got auto play, you've got the. algorithmic recommendations that are. really on it, aren't they? They know. exactly what it is that you want to see, and they are. >> for infinity, as well, right? >> Exactly. I once heard from um TikTok. that they tweak their algorithm every. eight videos that you see. So, it's. constantly updating to be absolutely. sharply on what you want. And they would. argue, "Well, it makes it a better. experience for you, right?". >> Mhm. >> It's much more enjoyable if it's stuff. you actually want to see. But let's. imagine that they have to take all of.

that out. Already you're looking at a. very different social media experience, right, which is arguably not as good, is. it? It's not as enjoyable, it's not as. engaging, that's the point. Um I am. really ancient and I remember Friends. Reunited, which, you know, predates all. of this, and everyone got so excited. about it because it was a very basic. platform where you could find your old. school friends, all right, and everyone. went, "Oh, fantastic. Oh, hi, you know, I haven't seen you for years. How are. you? Good. What you doing? This, that, and the other. Right. That was it. There. was nothing else to do. >> then followed. >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. And and you know,

you you sort of run out of things to do. quite quickly. And if you take away all. of those tactics, what are you left. with? Maybe that would that would mean. that it would die a natural death cuz. people just wouldn't want to hang out. there anymore. >> When we hear the era of impunity is. over, what does that mean? And and what. can that mean in terms of how the. industry is operating in the future in. in terms of the parameters, but maybe. the concerns as well as to what might. happen next. >> So, what that means is that the.

companies. um can no longer say that they are doing. enough. They can no longer point to the. big tool kits that they have in place. specifically for children. Many of them. end up being parental responsibilities, don't they? Um and they can no longer. say. here you are. Here's what we've done to. keep your child safe. We've done our. bit. Good luck. That's not going to work. anymore. And the other thing that I. think is super interesting is in the all. of these companies are based in the US, right? And in the US, there is a uh.

little clause of a law that's called. Section 230. And it shields the tech. industry because what it says. essentially, this is very basically, don't come at me, lawyers, what it says. is. you that the tech companies are not. liable for the content that's published. on them. Whereas, you know, here we are. sitting in the BBC studio. If I say. something or you say something, the. BBC's responsible for that. If we were. working sticking this on a social. network, the social network that we. chose would not be responsible for that.

content because it's protected by this. law. And those in favor of this say, you. know, the industry couldn't survive. without that protection because look at. it. There are billions of people. uploading billions of things in real. time all around the world constantly. How do you manage that? You can't be. responsible for that. But, on the other. hand, maybe it's time that they were. made responsible for that. You would. soon see the shutters come down, I. think, if. if, let's say, YouTube or Instagram or. TikTok, any of these, um, any of these.

networks had to be, you know, like, fundamentally legally responsible for. every bit of content that was there. And if that were to go, that would really change the way they. did business. >> And then, with, uh, a lawsuit as significant as this, could. we see then further. lawsuits of a similar ilk? And what. could be the repercussions? Could this. be the beginning of, uh, a set of. floodgates opening? >> There are loads. This is only the second. of a load of them that are going on.

throughout the rest of the year. Um, all. in the US. The first one was in New. Mexico. Meta lost that one. The second. one we've just heard, Meta's lost that. one, too. Now, that's not to say that it. will lose all of them, but, you know, it's not off to a very strong start in. terms of, um, its defense. Um, there. were actually two other companies that. were supposed to be involved in this, and they were TikTok and Snap, which. owns Snapchat, but they settled before. the trial. So, they have, sort of, absented themselves, if you like. I. think it's been a shock for Meta and. Google. I actually don't think they.

thought they would lose. They've really. put a lot of resources, and they have a. lot of resources, but they've put a lot. of resources into fighting this, you. know, eye-watering legal fees, what they. thought was a strong defense. Um, they. say, you know, we don't make any money. out of children. Children use the site. for free. We don't, because of. regulation, not because they've chosen. to, because of regulation, they don't, they're not exposed to the same. advertising. They're not exposed to the. same algorithms in places like the UK. and Europe. So, they are a bit more. protected. And they say, you know, we.

just think that they should be there. And, and they like it, and they, you. know, they bring trends, and they bring. a different, different, um, content to. the site that we want. Because they want. they want these people to grow up in. their ecosystem. >> Yeah, that's a that's an interesting. point. But when it comes to then I guess. the the owners on governments and in. terms of regulation, you mentioned. Australia there. Is it likely that other countries, other. continents we're going to start seeing. changes now or or or or bills. implemented in order to protect young.

people especially? >> So we've we've gone through a process. here. When social media first kind of. erupted and became a big thing, the. companies wanted to self-regulate. They. said, you know, leave us alone, we know. what we're doing. We are far more agile. than you. We're dealing with we're. dealing with this, you know, we don't. need government support. Well, that. didn't go very well. And then they came. to the government and said does the. government said regulate us. Tell us. what you want us to do, we'll do it. But. they don't like that either. There's a. lot of lobbying that goes on and there's. a lot of. you know, there's a lot of deals that.

that it wants that these two companies. want to do. They they they want to be. regulated in a way fundamentally that's. beneficial to them, right? Just like. many other industries. And I and and they kick against. regulation that doesn't suit them. That. said, they haven't left. So when Australia. banned social media for under 16s, you. know, nobody's left. The social networks. are still there for the over 16s. And it. would take something quite dramatic, I. think, for them to actually pull out.

Maybe they will if if if it gets so. strict that it gets to the point where. they can't operate as a business. anymore. Maybe they will. We here in the. UK are already kind of ahead of the. curve with the online safety acts, aren't we? We have a lot of age. verification now that's essential. So. you have to prove how old you are to get. onto social media sites, to get onto. porn sites, you know, to get onto lots. of different sites, anything really that. might have adult material on it. And so. we've already got that infrastructure in. place here if we chose to activate it.

more widely. >> When we hear that this could be the. moment for big tech which big tobacco. companies had to deal with um, a couple. of decades ago. Could we see a future. where, uh, the social media companies. having to self-regulate in order to. avoid further lawsuits? Or, how are they. going to work now with governments or. industry in order to make sure that. there is a better change for the future. for everybody involved? >> I've heard a lot of people describing it. as big tech's big tobacco moment. The.

the tech companies hate that, by the. way. And And what does that mean? You. know, does that mean we get health. warnings on screens? Does it mean that. they are limited from advertising or. sponsoring stuff? >> People still continue to smoke. cigarettes, for example. >> Exactly. It didn't stop people smoking, but it did change, you know, you can't. have cigarettes sponsoring the Premier. League anymore, right? You know, >> It still sponsors, I think, big uh, sneaker events. >> Exactly. Exactly. And what does it mean. for. how people find these platforms going. forward? We talk a lot about whether.

it's suitable for children under 16. Should it be under 18? Is this an. adult-only experience? Are we going to. look back on this time and think, you. know, why on earth did we let our. children on social media like we look. back at other stuff that, you know, kids. did in the past and think, what were we. thinking? >> Yeah. >> I I don't know how we will judge this. moment, but I do think that it will not. be the same going forward. You know, if. you have toddlers now, I don't think. they will be on social media the way, um, let's say, 16, 17-year-olds are now.

>> That was Zoe Kleinman, our BBC. technology editor. If you want to listen. to more, do click on the link below. where it says Global News Podcast. For. now, thanks so much for your time.