How Russia turns Ukrainians into spies | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the Global News podcast from. the BBC. I'm Valerie Sanderson and I'm. joined by Paul Moss, our global affairs. reporter. And Paul, we have this. extraordinary story of espionage and. betrayal with a top Ukrainian official. convicted of spying for Russia and. sentenced to life imprisonment. What can. you tell us about him? >> Well, he was the head of. counterterrorism and counterintelligence. at the SBU. That's the Ukrainian. security service. And so, he had huge.

responsibility, but it turned out yes, he was working for Moscow all along. Now, because he was head of. counterintelligence, one of the main things the Russians. wanted to know is how much do they know. about us, if you see what I mean. Now, that sounds rather convoluted, but such. is the nature of someone who was. effectively a double agent. But, we know. that he was also passing information on. much more down-to-earth things, Ukrainian troop movements. The Russians. also wanted to know how much damage is. it doing when we hit particular sites,

presumably so they could know whether. they were worth striking again. And. another thing that we know that this man. was passing on to the Russians was. details of other staff working at the. SBU. Now, that's interesting, because it. suggests that maybe the Russians were. thinking, "Well, if we can find people. who are vulnerable, maybe other people. will be open to to offers from us to. come and spy." All in all, it shows. though that the Russians were able to. recruit someone very, very high up. indeed, which will be of considerable. concern to Ukraine. >> And how did Ukraine catch him? They.

started this operation, didn't they, called Operation Rat? >> Operation Rat, yes, good great name. They haven't given too much detail, but. it seems that this involved the way in. which this man, the colonel, was caught. himself communicating with Russia. And. they ended up finding a safe house with. mobile phones, special mobile phones, and a special internet router that. couldn't be detected. And that's how. they caught him. But, they've said this. was an unprecedented operation, and you. could see why. Can you imagine how. difficult it must be? Because this was.

someone who was right at the top of the. SBU and the SBU had to investigate him. without him finding out. And it was very. important he didn't find out that he was. being investigated. Firstly, because. they wanted to catch him, but also. because once they did work out he was. indeed a spy, they did something very. clever. The SBU didn't immediately. arrest him. What they did was they fed. him false information which they knew. would then go back to Russia and the. Russians would be using that false. information. But eventually, of course, they did decide to move in. He was.

arrested more than a year ago and his. spy case is finally closed. >> I mean, do you know why they suspected. him? Because as you said, he was at the. very top. >> We don't have that information. What we. do know is that he was recruited a long. time ago, back in 2018, in Vienna. We know that he was motivated. by money. Cash was handed over, but. basically the Russians, you know, I suppose kept him as what. they call a sleeper. He wasn't really. doing very much until the Russian. invasion of Ukraine. They were obviously. looking ahead, at which point he was. activated and became very, very useful.

to him. >> And this is not the first high-profile. case, is it, in Ukraine? >> The extent of Russian penetration is. certainly going to be a worry. We know. that there have been literally thousands. of investigations into Ukrainians for. spying and we know that hundreds of them. have been successful. Uh and and they vary, obviously, in the. east of the country. People are giving. information on troop movements, very. simple things like that. In the west of. the country, people have been given. information on things like.

installations, infrastructure, targets. that the Russians might attack. Uh and. they vary enormously in in the kinds of. people involved and why they did it. Some, yes, for money. There are also. people who seem to have been almost. tricked and and an old Russian trick. dating back to the Cold War, which was. called the honey trap, uh using romantic. seduction to get people. We know of one. case where there was a 19-year-old. daughter of a priest. She seems to have. been charmed by a Russian handler. What.

she was doing, she was going up to the. the second floor of her father's church. and filming the Ukrainian troop. movements, live-streaming them to. Russia. She was paid, but it seems that. this was all done by charm. As I say, the extent of this really quite. remarkable. >> Is it always about money or is it about. ideology, too? >> I think we can certainly see cases where. that's happened. I mean, older people, they will remember when Ukraine and. Russia were in the same country, the. Soviet Union. For them, this feels very. much like a sort of civil war. They will.

have friends and former allies on the. other side, and there's no way around. it. Some of them have been sympathetic. to Russia, sympathetic to the Russian. cause, and certainly some of the people. have given information to the Russians. for that reason. >> What does it tell us, do you think, Paul, about corruption in Ukraine? I. mean, corruption is well documented, isn't it? >> Indeed. I mean, in that respect, so I. don't think we should be too surprised. that people have been bribed into spying. for Russia. I mean, yes, it's a fact. that corruption is very much a problem. in Russia. We've seen high-level people. in Ukraine found guilty of, for example,

taking money that was supposed to go to. the armed forces and using it for. themselves. Cases which have really. horrified the public. So, I guess if. people can be bribed to to do anything. like that, to give jobs to people in. order to get more money, then yes, they'll take bribes to spy for Russia. >> It all sums up sort of images of what. happened in the Cold War and the. tradition of Russian spying, which is. still going on. >> Absolutely. I mean, these people, you. know, a lot of them were still around. from the KGB days, and Russia was very.

honed well honed during the Cold War and. had a lot of success in penetrating at a. high level. And people with a long. memory remember in Britain, we had this. trio, they were called Philby, Burgess, and Maclean. Three people right at the. top of the spying establishment in. Britain, who it turned out all along. were spying for Russia. George Blake, Anthony Blunt, other names like this. In. fact, it caused a major problem during. the Cold War because it reached a point. where the Americans, the CIA, didn't. want to give information to Britain. because they regarded it as leaking. But.

then America had problems of their own. There was a man called Aldrich Ames who. actually died earlier this year. He was. simply out for the money. He was a. senior CIA man. He needed cash and he. walked into the Russian Embassy in the. United States and said, "How much for. for information?" And sold it at a at a. level. And many people are thought to. have suffered as a result. >> Do we know about the extent of Russia. spying on other countries now? Because. obviously it must be different now in. terms of the technology. >> Technology has changed everything. I.

mean, first of all, in terms of. recruitment, we know that some of these. people in Ukraine are recruited over the. internet through Telegram. They offer. simple They actually put out ads, you. know, "Give us a help and we will pay. you." You know, it could be done by. cryptocurrency. We certainly know that the number of. arrests for espionage have shot up. We. don't know if that just means we're. catching them. I mean, hundreds of. diplomats in Europe have been returned. to Russia, Russian diplomats. And many. of them were, as the euphemism goes, guilty of activities incompatible with. their status, which means spying.

But there've other been other cases. similar in fact to this colonel where. they were sleepers. I mean, there was. the supposedly Brazilian academic who. was arrested in Norway. He'd been a He was actually a Russian. He'd been a supposedly Brazilian. academic in Canada before. He was. actually finding out lots of information. about the polar region. Here in Britain, we saw a ring of Bulgarians arrested for. allegedly spying for Russia. I mean, the. people And these people had also been in. Britain for a very long time. So, it's.

very possible that the activities have. kept up. Or it's possible it's been the. same since the Cold War ended. It's just. that we've started to notice and indeed. started to care about it a bit more. >> And what about the other way around? Because the West spies on Russia, too, doesn't it? >> Russia is by some accounts having a. record number of arrests for espionage. and treason. One one group that monitors. this said, in fact, this year has been a. bumper year for Russia arresting people. for espionage. They fall into different.

>> Yes, in Well, in turn, yes, internally. They fall into different categories. You. first of all got Russians who are. arrested in Russia for espionage. Now, Russia is deeply, deeply any kind. of foreign interference. One allegation. is if you simply accept help from. foreign organization, maybe a human. rights group, you can get yourself. arrested for espionage. But there have. also been foreigners arrested in Russia. I mean, I think of people like Evan. Gershkovich, the Wall Street Journal. journalist. He was openly reporting. He. wasn't hiding in Siberia, but he.

suddenly found himself arrested for. espionage. His defenders would say he. was simply used as a bargaining chip, and sure enough, he was later swapped. I. should say another category is not. within Russia itself, but within. Russia-occupied Ukraine. Hundreds of. people have been arrested there for. espionage. Ukrainians who may well. indeed have been very brave people. feeding information back to their home. country, Ukraine, about what the. Russians are up to. And they've had very. severe prison sentences for doing this. >> And how important do you think spying is.

for the Russian state? I mean, I suppose. what we should remember is the man at. the top, Vladimir Putin, started off as. a KGB spy, didn't he? >> I think that's very important. So, he's. obviously going to take espionage as a. crucial role for for any country. I. mean, certainly if people are able to. deliver targets and tell people about. foreign installations and what's. important and what infrastructure is. vulnerable, that has got to be useful to. Russia. I think at the same time we should. remember that one could argue that there. has been one huge intelligence failure.

When Vladimir Putin launched this. invasion of Ukraine, he famously thought. that the country would fold and the war. would be over in a few weeks. Now, some. people will tell you that that is. because of bad intelligence, bad. intelligence about Ukraine's military. vulnerability, but there were also. people suggesting to the Russians, suggesting to the Kremlin, "Look, you. have lots of supporters and sympathizers. in Ukraine, in politics, in the. military, in civil society. When you. invade, they will rise up in support of. you." Well, that didn't happen, and the.

intelligence about Ukraine's military. structures proved to be of of of. underestimating it, and that is perhaps. why we had a war that was supposed to. last a few weeks, and we're still going. more than 4 years later. >> Thanks, Paul. And that was Paul Moss, our global. affairs reporter. If you want to find. out more about this story, just listen. to the Global News Podcast. Click on the. link below. But, that's it from this. edition of the Global News Podcast here. on YouTube. Thanks for listening. Thanks. for watching, and bye for now.