How China is spying on the West with fake job ads | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the global news podcast from. the BBC. I'm Valerie Sanderson and I'm. joined by our security correspondent. Frank Gardner. And Frank, there is a. warning from the Western intelligence. services that China has a scheme to. steal state secrets from the West. What. do we know about this? >> Okay, so it's not the first time that. this warning has been issued, but it is. the first time that all five countries. that make up the so-called Five Eyes. alliance, that is Britain, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, have.

joined forces to send out a coordinated. synchronized warning. And their warning. is that China's Minister of State. Security is using platforms like. LinkedIn and various other ones to try. and lure professionals who are working. in sensitive positions, people who've. got access to non-public information and. data, particularly people who work, for. example, in government, in parliament, in defense, security, tech, um to lure them with tempting job offers.

uh through bogus recruiting ads to then. eventually get them to try and steal. secrets on their behalf. Look, spying. is, I don't know, what is it, the second. or third oldest profession in the world? Everybody does it. Um Britain and the US. and the countries that are making this. claim also do spy and they spy on China. >> Is it very different from what China did. in the past? >> Well, I think it's the scale of it and. I'm tempted to say the sophistication of.

it, but it's not always that. sophisticated because there was a case. last year where um a couple of people. were identified by MI5 um as being. fronts for China's Ministry of State. Security. Um. one of them posted a very attractive. photograph of herself online. It all. looked very innocent, but it was very. badly worded in broken English. It kind. of reminded me of those scam letters. that used to come out of West Africa. saying, you know, "Uh I've just inherited millions of.

pounds. I'd like to give them to you.". So, I think there are varying degrees of. sophistication here, but it's the fact. that they're doing this in a very modern. way. You know, it's rather than sort of. the old-fashioned honey trap of. or the two-way mirror in your hotel room. on the businessman's visit to Shanghai. and Beijing. I mean, maybe that stuff. still goes on, but it kind of belongs in. the 1970s. This is very much a 21st. century way of doing it. So, this. bulletin that's been put out is sort of. to warn people who are on these.

professional networking sites, perfectly. legitimately, to be wary of tempting. offers that lure them to China or to. doing work for China because it they're. saying it may well be a front. And that. you are inadvertently working for the. Ministry of State Security or for. Chinese military intelligence without. even knowing it. You know, and these. reports get rewarded, they say, with. hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Uh. if we assume that it's true in China, by.

the way, the Chinese Embassy has. responded that uh in London saying this. is totally untrue and it is malicious. slander. I mean, they normally do react. to any criticism of People's Republic of. China as being malicious slander. It's a. kind of stock phrase. Um and they. pointed out, by the way, that to. collectively the Five Eyes is the. largest intelligence gathering. organization in the world, and they. would be right because the biggest. partner here is the NSA, the National. Security Agency agency of the United.

States, which has enormous electronic. eavesdropping and interception. capabilities. >> And Frank, what is the end goal for. China, do you think? Is this about. direct conflict with the West, finally? >> No, I don't think it is. I. I mean, the what the bulletin is saying, um the warning that's been put out. jointly, is that this is to give China a. strategic and tactical advantage um, both in the military, political, and. economic spheres. Um, China is hungry.

for data. It hoovers up an enormous. amount of data. So, by the way, does. America's National Security Agency, the. NSA, and so, of course, do the tech. companies, let's not forget. You know, they are absolutely voracious in their. appetite for your personal data, um, and the algorithms reflect that. But, China has a huge appetite for data. It is currently in a. absolute make-or-break race with the. United States when it comes to, um, AI.

and particularly AGI. Um, so so. um. not generative, but, uh, artificial. general intelligence, um, which is kind. of beyond AI. It's when the AI starts to. think for itself, because then you're. kind of into a super race. Um, and they. are definitely competing for that. So, anything that China can use, um, to give. them a competitive advantage, they're. interested in. China doesn't want to go. to war with anybody. The last time they.

fought a war was 1979, and. you know, to use a rather crude. expression, Vietnam kicked their butts. I mean, you. know, tiny little Vietnam, they had a. border war, and it did not go well for. the People's Liberation Army. Um, so, they would love to avoid that, but at the same time, they are building. up uh, their military power enormously, not just in hypersonic and nuclear. missiles, but also in conventional, um, things like amphibious warfare and.

drone technology. I mean, they are. They are the world leaders in hypersonic. missiles. Those are missiles that travel. faster than five times the speed of. sound. And, of course, they've got an. interest in Taiwan, which China. considers to be a renegade province. The. US is bound to help defend it, but. there's a big question mark over whether. that would mean sending troops to. actually defend it. China would like. America to just back off and say, "You. know what? This is our part of the. world, you back off.". >> You mentioned the Western countries to.

counter this intelligence gathering by. China are also spying on China. >> I mean, it's it's a given. Probably not. nothing like the same scale. I mean, in. the case of the UK, it's a minuscule you. know, what are we Our population is. what? 70 million? China's is you know, well over a billion. So, um. in terms of scale, um China particularly. when it comes to. um. computer you know, cyber warfare is huge. by comparison. Um but yes, there was a famous case some.

years ago where the US decided that it. would run its network, its espionage. network in China using the dark web. And. it basically instructed its agents, its. its spies, its actual spies to kind of. log in to um. heavily encrypted. um node on the dark web. um whereby the US the CIA thought that. they would be safe that way. China. cracked the code and once they'd cracked.

that, they wrapped up the whole network. and arrested a whole load of people. So, you know, that pretty much. dismantled the US espionage network. inside China. Um I'm not sure that Britain had the. same problem. I think they you know, they tended to do things by different. ways. I don't actually know. I genuinely. don't know how they spy in the modern. age because it's incredibly difficult. In the old days, you know, I mean, the really old days, you'd slap. on a mustache and send a intelligence.

officer in calling themselves, you know, Professor Buggins from XYZ. University attending a fascinating. conference that was actually nothing to. do with spying and then they'd slip out. of that and go and make contact in a. cachet. That's much harder to do now because of. biometric and facial and iris. recognition, and China and Russia are. very good at this, as are most Western. countries these days. So, you can't get. somebody into a country through passport. control without them being identified.

>> And what does this all mean for the. relationship with Beijing, Frank? Because these Western countries, the US, UK, Canada, trade with China. >> They do, which is why. the West's attitude to China is very. different to its attitude to Russia. So, Russia is painted unequivocally as the. aggressor and as the supreme threat, the. the imminent threat to Europe. Um and. the West has partially weaned itself off.

um what Russia has to offer in terms of. exports. Um. I eat hydrocarbons. Now, they haven't. completely done it, but by by next year, they will largely have weaned themselves. off Russia's oil and gas. You can't do. that with China. It is hardwired into. the global economy. You know, if you look around your house, your. flat, your your car, so much of what you. use in your daily life, China is in that. supply chain, if not actually making it.

You can't cut yourself off from China. So, therefore, Britain's Security. Minister Dan Jarvis, he's added his. comments to this bulletin that's gone. out by the Five Eyes Alliance, saying um. essentially explaining what I would call. Britain's two-pronged attitude to China, which is while we. we need to have a relationship with them. so that we can call them out on things. like this that we will not tolerate, but. at the same time keep an open channel. with them because it's a benefit to the.

UK. And of course it is, you know, bilateral trade is is huge. Sir Keir. Starmer, the Prime Minister was there. not long ago. You know, as I say, China. is. absolutely integral and is the second. biggest economy in the world. It may. even one day, not too not too distant future, overtake. the United States. >> Thanks, Frank. That was our security. correspondent Frank Gardner. If you want. more on this story, just listen to the. Global News Podcast. Click on the link.

below. But, that's it from this edition. of the Global News Podcast here on. YouTube. Thanks for watching. Thanks for. listening. And bye for now.