Hacking and AI in the Iran war | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the BBC's Global News podcast. on YouTube. Hello, I'm Janat Jalil and. today we're looking at the use of cyber. warfare in the US Israeli war on Iran. Oh, I'm joined by the BBC's cyber. correspondent Joe Tidy. Hello Joe. >> Hi. >> We've been hearing a lot about the. massive firepower of the US and Israel, but cyber ops are playing an. increasingly crucial role too, aren't. they? >> Yeah, and there is that massive sort of. juxtaposition between seeing and hearing.

so much about the the power of Israeli. and US Air Force. We're seeing the. ships, we're seeing they're posting. almost every hour, you know, pictures, videos slickly made of all the weapons. and ships and planes and launchers, but. we are seeing and hearing very little. about cyber. But what's interesting is. it's clearly playing a big role because. we are hearing little hints and glimpses. in the press conferences that the US are. giving us because you hear things like. this from um Admiral Brad Cooper saying. we continue with strikes into Iran from.

seabed to space and cyberspace. And I. think what's really really interesting. for me is the earliest press conference. they gave about about the attacks was. the one where we heard the most. So, for. example, we heard that it was all part. of this sync or they call it a. synchronized and layered uh operation. So, the the general said across every. domain, land, sea, air, cyber, the US. joint force delivered synchronized and. layered effects designed to disrupt, degrade, deny, and destroy Iran's. ability to conduct and sustain combat.

operations. But sadly, we're not getting. much detail about what's happening. there. >> There have been some reports though, haven't they, about how Israel's. intelligence service Mossad has been. able to penetrate deep into Iranian. society using cyber operations. >> Yeah, it's really hard to get. verification because of course not only. are we talking about an adversary in. Iran and a and a society where we don't. hear much back, especially cuz the. internet's not working there as well, they switched it off the regime. But. also, there is a kind of strange It's.

not just a fog of war, but there's. something about cyber where we don't. we're not we're not told. They try and. keep these things very secret, but there. were reports, as you say, about the. Israeli cyber unit infiltrating Iran to. such a degree that they were able to to. build up this giant. mesh of security cameras, traffic. cameras, CCTV CCTV cameras that they had. hacked in order to carry out. surveillance on people like the. Ayatollah and the regime top leaders in.

order to work out where they are, when. they are, to develop what they call. patterns of life, which enabled, we think, the initial. strikes. Other operations that are being. talked about as well are. defacements of news websites in Iran. around the same time as the the initial. wave of of bombs. And a very interesting attack that, again, unconfirmed, but it wouldn't. surprise me at all, to be honest, with. things we've seen in the past, that a. very popular um Iranian prayer timing.

app called Ba Dabba, which has 5 million downloads, apparently. That was hacked around the. same time as the the initial strikes, and a and a push notification went out. initially saying something like help has. arrived, and then later on saying giving. instructions and and demanding that. people surrender. So, you've got these. kind of the preparation element to. cyber, which. unconfirmed, but wouldn't surprise me at. all, where, you know, we hear of months. and even years of work going on behind. the scenes to lay the groundwork for uh.

cyber for for for kinetic attacks, as. they call them, so bombs and missiles. being done by cyber operate operatives. But then we've got this other element to. it where we're seeing cyber combined. with kinetic attacks at the point in. which. they want to start the war. So, we heard. in the first press conference. that uh US Cyber Command and US Space. Command were described as the first. movers. who layered non-kinetic effects. disrupting, degrading, and blinding.

Iran's ability to see, communicate, and. respond. That's. military speak, obviously, but I think. we can glean from that that there was. some sort of activity at exactly the. same point in order to make Iran unable. to see what was coming. >> And there's an increasingly important. role for AI as well, because we've just. seen this recent row between the. Pentagon and the company Anthropic over. using its AI model with Anthropic saying. it won't allow the Trump administration. full control because it's worried about. what this means for domestic.

surveillance, for. autonomous lethal weapons being used by. the US military. So, quite a sort of dystopian scenario. there. >> It is, and. the defense secretary or or secretary of. department of war as as he refers to it, Pete Hexev, he has said, you know, he. wants the military to be AI first. He. wants it to be using AI first and. foremost in every single element of. operation. And we got a little glimpse. of this when Pete Hexev was doing one of.

his press conferences. So, Pete Hexev. said, "I was talking to a young colonel. who's iterating on how we target and how. we find and fix different aspects of. what the Iranians are trying to do.". What I was I was sort of painted a. picture there of him sort of by some. some some sort of young whiz kid. operative who was at a laptop or a. computer, and I can just imagine that. they're using AI, lots and lots of. tooling that that, you know, we haven't. even seen yet, for example, to carry out.

this targeting cuz the the phase we're. in of the war now, it seems to be. they're as as it's been described, they're hunting for targets cuz they've. dropped, you know, thousands and. thousands of missiles and bombs. >> And they've assassinated dozens of. senior figures. >> Yeah, and now it's all about degrading. the military as much as possible. So, that kind of thing is where it was where. cyber and AI will really be playing a. crucial role. That kind of getting that. information in from open source, satellite imagery, security cameras, traffic cameras, whatever. Espionage and.

trying to work out right, what can we. attack? Where is it? How can we pinpoint. it in in the country in order to make. those strikes as as as devastating as. possible. >> And what about the the internet blackout. that's been imposed by the Iranian. authorities? There's There's hardly any. internet access. It's very hard to find. out what's going on. It's very hard for. people in Iran to get messages out. How. is that affecting the cyber warfare? >> Well, that's been a really interesting. aspect to it because Iran is considered. to be a cyber superpower of sorts. You.

know, it's not up there with. the UK or even obviously the US is way. ahead everyone everyone else and China, but it is a threat. And we have seen. hardly any return fire in terms of cyber. from from Iran. And some people think. that could be because. Iran has effectively switched off the. internet, but that hasn't affected. things that much in the past that we've. seen because of course there are ways. that authoritarian governments can can. keep themselves, their operatives open. in terms of internet connectivity, whereas the rest of the population is.

unable to get online. For example, North. Korea, you know, that they're very very. online as a nation, but the actual. civilians and citizens aren't. So, that has been a bit puzzling. There have. been all sorts of warnings saying that. Iran will retaliate in cyber, but it. just hasn't come. One of the other. theories is that. well, two really. Could it be because. Iran's cyber operations have been. impacted or impaired in some way? There. is talk of an Israeli strike directed at. that kind of facility. I would be.

surprised if that's the case though. because if it would be distributed. across the country and it would be. underground in bunkers, that kind of. thing. So, I'd be surprised if that was. the answer. The other one is have we. overestimated Iran? For years now, you know, they have got. this history of pretty. impactful cyber attacks, but nothing. happened in June either when they are. outbreak of conflict there and nothing's. happening now. So it's quite strange, but still the cybersecurity world is. sort of braced for some sort of response. from Iran. >> What has it been able to do in the past?

>> Lots of big disruptive kind of noisy. attacks. So for example, wiper attacks. These are a bit of a specialty of Iran. That is when a cyber attacker gets into. a system and we often talk about. ransomware where a system all the. computers are kind of scrambled so the. data is unusable. But with a wiper. attack, you don't care about a ransom or. disruption. You just want to destroy. that company or that organization. So. you delete everything essentially. So we. saw for example in 2012 Iran was was. accused of attacking Saudi Arabia's oil.

giant Aramco with a wiper attack. It. destroyed 30,000 computers and plunged. that company into obviously weeks and. months of of utter carnage and chaos. A. similar thing happened to a. someone who spoke out in the US about. Iran and he owned some casinos and all. of those casinos were hit as well. There's also been alleged attacks. against US and Israeli water treatment. petrochemical plants which, you know, is. very serious. We're talking about.

potential, you know, real damage to real. people there in terms of, you know, if. you could cause some sort of a kinetic. effect to to cyber attacks. So there is. this storied history that Iran has and. because of that reputation, they are. always sort of to be feared in a sense. if you're coming from a adversarial. point of view from the west. But then at. the same time. you have to bear in mind that the the. kind of information that we get that the. the signals that we that we get the. warnings that we get come from this. giant cybersecurity industry that's.

western dominated and they of course. make money from scaring us all into. thinking that Iran is going to do XYZ, therefore we need to buy their products. to keep us safe. >> What do all these operations tell us. about the future of cyber warfare? How. how scary is it? How how scared should. we be? >> Well, I think we have to be careful not. to sort of overstate the role that cyber. plays because if the Russia-Ukraine. conflict has showed us anything, it's. that cyber will pale into near.

insignificance when it comes to missiles. and drones pulverizing buildings and and. killing people in in in their homes or. on the battlefield. But what we are. seeing is further evidence that cyber. has an absolutely crucial part to play. in modern conflict because it prepares. the groundwork. and it degrades the abilities of an. adversary and also the sort of stage. we're at now, it continues a conflict. because of course it's only through. cyber and space common and that kind of. capability that you're able to carry out.

attacks on otherwise hidden and shrouded. targets. >> Thanks, Joe. That was the BBC's cyber correspondent. Joe Tidy. And if you like this episode, please subscribe to us here on YouTube. If you'd like us to cover any other. stories, leave a comment below. And if. you want to listen to more international. news, you can always download our Global. News Podcast.