Can Ukraine get peace without losing land? | Global News Podcast

Welcome to the global news podcast on. YouTube where we go behind the. headlines. I'm Janat Jal and today. Ukraine says it's holding its first. trilateral talks with the US and Russia. since Moscow's fullscale invasion of. Ukraine. Well, Wira Davis has reported. extensively from Ukraine and he joins us. now. So Wira, how significant is it that. Russia is joining the US and Ukraine in. Abu Dhabi for these talks? I think it is. very significant. Uh I don't think we're.

going to get too much out of it. But. this is the first time that the two. sides and the Americans will have sat. down together. But you know, Donald. Trump has complained, I think, with some. justification that he goes and sees the. Ukrainians on their own. They talk about. wanting peace. He goes to see the. Russians on their own. They talk about. the same thing. But you can never get. this two sides together. And I think uh. to be fair to Donald Trump, getting both. sides together is is a is a sign of some. progress, but that doesn't mean the.

talks are going to succeed because. there's an awful lot of distance between. their relative positions. Remember. towards the end of last year, the start. of this year, uh the Ukrainian president. Zilinski said there was a 90%. chance of uh the 20 point peace plan. succeeding. There was a lot of hope. certainly in official Ukrainian circles. that something could happen, but it it. all went quiet. Um, you know, the new. year has come and gone. The war has. continued. In fact, in many ways, it's. intensified with the Russian attacks.

over Ukrainian cities. And the Ukrainian. position, I think there's some. justification, has been that you that. Russia's just not been interested in in. sitting around the table. to this. 20point peace plan that of course was. hammered out at the Paris summit with. the coalition of the willing and the. Americans and that I think is the basis. for what we're going to see in Abu Dhabi. but um details are scarce. >> as you say we're a details are scarce. but we do know that one big key sticking. point is the future of the Donbas region.

Russia wants parts of it that currently. are controlled by the Ukrainians the. Ukrainians say no way given the. sacrifices they've made in defending. their territory. A red line for both. sides. How do you square that circle? >> Yeah, as you say, it is one of the main. sticking points. Actually, there are. many more, but let's stick on this one. Russia now controls about 20% of. Ukraine's territory. Zilinski seems to. be acknowledging that if there is to be. a peace deal and a ceasefire agreement,

uh, Ukraine is going to have to accept. in the short term that it's going to. lose some territory. Now what the. Ukrainians don't want is for the. Russians to be given territory they. don't even control the whole of the. Donbass. That is what Putin wants. And. that is why the Russians haven't been. engaged around the table so far is. because they haven't achieved their. military [snorts]. land grabbing objectives on in eastern. Ukraine. So that is a big sticking. point. Uh I spoke to a lot of Ukrainians. and they don't want to hand over any. land at all. But I think even the most.

pragmatic ones would really bork at. having to give land that Russia doesn't. even occupy to Russia. But again, this. isn't the only sticking point. There are. other things like um the presence of. foreign troops on Ukrainian soil because. one of the points in in the post Paris. plan is for a multinational force made. up probably mainly of British and French. troops to help keep the peace. Well, Vladimir Putin said that's not. acceptable. In fact, he said he would. regard them as legitimate targets. So I. think any sense of foreign troops being.

uh brought into to police or maintain. some sort of ceasefire is another big. sticking point. And the other one of. course a vital one for the Ukrainians is. that they have these these guarantees um. of of course it's not a member of NATO. So, Zilinski wants guarantees, security. guarantees that if in the event of a. ceasefire, Russia then at some point in. the future invades other parts of. Ukraine that the Americans and NATO. allies would come to Ukraine's aid.

>> Well, Mr. Zilinski did say at Davos this. week that he'd got those security. guarantees from the US. What [snorts]. What are the concessions from the. Russian side? Because we keep hearing. about what the Ukrainians are being. asked to give up. What are the Russians. prepared to give up? because there has. to be some kind of compromise surely. >> Look, we haven't really seen uh the. details of what the Russians are. offering. Of course, they seem to be. dominant militarily at the minute. Ukraine is losing ground and they have. been steadily losing ground for the last.

uh few months. So, Russia would agree to. end the war. There'd be an exchange of. prisoners, but I think Russia would have. to accept some of those other points. like perhaps a multinational. peacekeeping force. Um it would have to. accept that Ukraine is going to get. these security guarantees. But we've not. really seen from the Russian side many. details because they haven't been. engaged um internationally yet. Of. course, one important point I think that. Bours Ukraine a little bit is that the. American delegations have been to Russia. many times. Steve Wickoff and Jared.

Kushner Wickoff in particular, Donald. Trump's special envoy has been to Russia. on several occasions, including in the. last couple of days, he's never been to. Ukraine. And that is one reason I think. why even though he's very skeptical and. he's angry with the continued Russian. aggression, Zilinsky feels that he has. to participate in these talks in Abu. Dhabi because uh he feels that. Donald Trump's attention has been. focused elsewhere. We all know about. Venezuela. We all know about Greenland.

um other areas. And there's a real real. fear on the Ukrainian side that Donald. Trump and the American side are going to. lose interest in the war in Ukraine at a. time when Zilinski really needs to keep. the momentum going. >> And he's also concerned that the. Russians have been emboldened by the. success of their air strikes on Kev and. other major Ukrainian cities which have. devastated the heating and power. infrastructure and left many people. struggling to cope in the midst of a.

freezing winter. Well, uh, Ukrainian. government says there is not now a. single conventional power station across. the whole of Ukraine that has not been. damaged or hit in in Russian air. strikes. Temperatures in Kev over the. last couple of weeks have been. occasionally minus 20° centigrade. So, with the loss of power and the freezing. conditions, it's been terrible for tens. of thousands of Ukrainians, particularly. in the capital Kev, where Russia seems. to be focusing much of its attacking. and Zilinski has accused Russia of.

deliberately exploiting the freezing. cold winter which has been much colder. even by Ukrainian standards to make life. hard for its people. And there are tens. of thousands of people in apartment. blocks in Kev who haven't got heating, they haven't got running water, they. haven't got electricity. Uh the Kev. local authorities are having to set up. these so-called invincibility centers. Now those are train carriages in train. stations or huge marquees uh that have. heating that have food that have water. that have company because you know a lot.

of kids at the minute can't go to school. because the schools are closed because. there's no heating. So uh it is a really. really difficult situation. The mayor of. Keev, Vitali Klitschko, has actually. encouraged people to leave the capital. if they can. And it's reported that in. the last few days at least 600,000. people have left the Ukrainian capital, albeit temporarily. >> Well, given all that, when you when you. speak to Ukrainians on the ground there, when you're reporting from Kiev, what do.

they say about the prospects of of. making peace with Russia? Do they trust. Vladimir Putin? Do they trust Donald. Trump? The animosity is absolutely huge. And it goes to, you know, that look, we've nearly had four years of war now. Uh [snorts] thousands of Ukrainians have. been killed. Many, many more Russians. have been killed. But most Ukrainians I. speak to don't want to make these big. concessions uh to Russia. Uh they don't. want to give up their land in the east. for peace and they certainly don't trust.

uh Vladimir Putin, especially in the. long term. The big fear for most. Ukrainians is is if there is a peace. deal now, if there's a ceasefire and if. Russia gets some of that land in the. east, what happens in four or five years. time and it's not just Ukraine that the. Baltic republics uh in Poland, in other. eastern countries that they're very very. worried about Vladimir Putin's sort of. belligerent intentions and no Ukrainians. I speak to um speak positively about. Putin or or can see his point of view.

Donald Trump's a different thing, I. think. President Zilinski knows he has. to keep on the right side of Donald. Trump and that's I think why we saw. Zilinski slightly critical of European. leaders in the last couple of days. I. don't think he did that because he he's. angry with European leaders. I mean. there is the best allies but I think. he's echoing some of Donald Trump's. points because he knows um that he has. to curry favor with Donald Trump and. that is why he's gone to this meeting in. Abu Dhabi and that is why he you know.

turns up and speaks to Trump whenever he. can because he has to keep Donald. Trump's interests. >> we're thank you that was Davis and if. you liked this episode please subscribe. to us here on YouTube and if you'd like. us to cover any other stories please. leave a comment below. And if you want. to hear more international news, you can. always download our global news podcast. from wherever you get your podcasts.