Are Hong Kong's dreams of democracy dead? | BBC News

Hi, welcome to the Global News podcast. on YouTube where we go behind the. headlines of a story and tell you why it. really matters. I'm Ana Desai and today. we're discussing China's crackdown on. Hong Kong's dreams of democracy. Jimmy. Lie, the media tycoon and activist, has. been sentenced to 20 years in prison. To. discuss this, I've got my fellow Global. News podcast presenter and longtime. China correspondent, Celia Hatton, alongside me. Celia, hello. Thank you so. much for joining us and sharing your. expertise. So Jimmy Lie, tell us a bit.

about him and I guess his rise to. prominence, a real rags to rich's story. >> Absolutely. I mean, we talk of Jimmy Lie. uh because of his stance on on democracy. and Hong Kong, but actually if you go. back in time, he's been a name in Hong. Kong for decades. And that's because. he's kind of the definition of a. self-made man. So he was actually born. in mainland China and he fled China. right before the communist revolution. And so he arrived in Hong Kong and the. the myth is that he arrived with just a. bar of chocolate, nothing else. He was.

12. And so he went to go and work in a. clothing factory as a child laborer. Spent years there working his way up to. become a manager of a clothing factory. And then famously, he took his year-end. bonus from working in the factory and. put it towards a a defunct factory of. his own and started his own clothing. line and grew it into this absolutely. massive brand that still exists today, Gordano. It's in 30 countries. You know, he became the very definition of a Hong.

Kong success story. And that's something. that's always been prized in Hong Kong. But then he decided to turn his. attention to politics and he he sold he. sold a stake in Gordano and moved to. establish what went on to become the. biggest listed media company in Hong. Kong, Next Digital. And at the heart of. Next Digital was this newspaper called. Apple Daily, which was the most read. newspaper in Hong Kong. And it was kind. of like this tabloid newspaper. It loved.

to poke fun at the authorities. Really. at the heart of it was this kind of. constant questioning, this constant push. that when Hong Kong was handed back from. the UK back to China, there was a. promise that it would move towards. democracy. That at one point everybody. in Hong Kong would get a vote and this. was a promise that the Chinese. authorities had made to the British when. Hong Kong was handed over. And Apple. Daily never forgot that. Jimmy Lie never. forgot that promise. And then of course.

he became a huge critic of the Chinese. government and organized a lot of. protests which you covered a lot during. your time there. >> Yeah. I mean I wouldn't say he. necessarily organized them but he was. definitely one of the people who fueled. them through his media company and. because he was such a well-known very. wealthy critic. So I remember back in. 2014 I was covering the umbrella. movement. These were protests that were. symbolized by something that people. carry around in Hong Kong a lot cuz it's. so rainy, umbrellas. And I was. interviewing a bunch of really young,

excited students at the time. We were in. the middle of Hong Kong in central Hong. Kong that had been taken over by these. huge protests. And I was interviewing. these really young teenagers about why. they were taking part in the protests. And all of a sudden, this kind of. electric ripple went through the crowd. and everybody kind of was shouting that. Jimmy Lie had arrived at on the protest. scene. And these students just like. mid-inter just fled, you know, just to.

get close to where he was. And I was. sort of on an overpass. I could see sort. of the crowd surging around him and. just, you know, to see all these really. young people who were excited about the. future of Hong Kong, excited again about. this promise that one day they would get. a vote, surging to see this man who they. saw as kind of the um, you know, the. emblematic symbols of this protest of. this whole protest movement was really. something. You know, those protests. continued. There were more in 2019 that.

actually became quite violent. Yeah. And. then in 2020, the national security law. was put in place right when COVID was. kind of really coming into full force. So the protests were really shut down, people retreated to their homes and then. Hong Kong completely changed and that's. really when Jimmy Lie story changed as. well. >> So in terms of how China deals with its. critics, how have they gone about. treating Jimmy Lie and what's his life. in prison been like? Because I've I've. heard in some quarters of the media he's. been described as the conscience of Hong.

Kong by some. Really the story of Jimmy. Lie and how he's been treated is kind of. the story of Hong Kong. So there's. incredibly strict laws put in place and. almost overnight the kind of energy. behind that democracy movement is kind. of sapped away from Hong Kong. So you. know a lot of people are arrested, media. outlets are shut down, a lot of people. are really worried. They actually leave. Hong Kong and Jimmy Lie crucially is. arrested um in two months later in. August uh 2020. the media organization,

his media organization Apple Daily is. raided and Jimmy Lie almost in. immediately goes into solitary. confinement. He's treated really harshly. by the Chinese authorities and his. health is really deteriorated. We should. say he's 78 years old and apparently. he's lost, according to his children, he's lost 10 kilograms in the past year. alone. So there are real concerns for. his health and a lot of people, you. know, again talk about the health of. Jimmy Lie and the health of Hong Kong.

and and its civil society, the Hong Kong. future of Hong Kong kind of as as one. >> Jimmy Li is also a British citizen. So. that's important to note here. Um are. China not worried that this could cause. diplomatic problems? There was a recent. visit as well from the UK Prime Minister. Karma and did he bring it up? Apparently he did. Um, you know, we've. also heard that uh the White House, US. diplomats have been pushing the case for. Jimmy Lie to be released into into.

exile. It is possible. You know, we have. Donald Trump going to visit China in. April. Some people have raised the. possibility that maybe Jimmy Lie will be. allowed to go into exile. I don't think. he'd ever be released and allowed to. kind of live in Hong Kong again. I think. that ship has sailed. But there is a. chance that Jimmy Lie might be allowed. to to leave and just go and live a very. quiet life in exile. There is some. precedent for this. So for example, uh. Leo Yao, he was a famous Chinese.

dissident. He was put into prison in. mainland China. He won the Nobel Peace. Prize while in prison. The Chinese. authorities did not release him until he. basically was on his deathbed from. cancer. He was released into hospital in. 2017. He died just over two weeks later. Um, but there is some precedent for. Beijing kind of responding to. international diplomatic pressure. I. don't think they would do so directly. after a request was made. They're trying. to protect their idea that their system.

is is is not up for debate. Uh but I. think there is a possibility that maybe. around the this US visit, maybe after. Jimmy Li serves a full year of this. prison sentence, whether because of his. ill health, they might let him go. because they certainly do not want him. to die in prison. >> A lot of people also make the parallels. between the fate of Jimmy Lie and and. Hong Kong's struggle for democracy. So. when it comes to the future and I guess. somewhat the present as well, how does.

this unfold? The message here from from. Cinping right at the top of the. communist authorities is no one is above. the law and I will go after you know the. most powerful people if I need to if. they threaten me. And you know already. in China we've seen China's richest man. Jack Ma you know be silenced go into. exile and then quietly be rehabilitated. but never really quite return to his. platform. Just in the past couple of. weeks, we've seen the head of the. Chinese military be, you know, thrown.

out of his position and he's now under. investigation. This is a man who was. Cining's childhood friend, you know. So, I think the message is from Cigin Ping. who who runs China um that no one is. above the law and I will I will not. hesitate to hand down any really strict. sentence. >> And we know Taiwan is trying to preserve. its own independence as well. So, so. what sort of a message does it send to. Taiwan? I guess. >> so. Taiwan is a territory that Beijing. believes is its own. It's Taiwan is.

self-ruuled, but Beijing and the. authorities in Beijing have always said. that they want to reclaim Taiwan, that. it it belongs to them. So, for a long. time, you know, we were watching, you. know, especially during those umbrella. protests I mentioned, which were to a. certain extent tolerated by the Chinese. authorities. And the theory was that. maybe Hong Kong was being allowed to. develop its own political system, its. own sort of creative civil society in. order to lure Taiwan back into the fold. That maybe if Hong Kong was made to look.

like an attractive place, people in. Taiwan might think, okay, well, maybe. it's not so bad to actually rejoin uh. the Chinese umbrella and become part of. China, mainland China again. I think. now, especially with the sentencing of. Jimmy Lie, we've and the imposition of. this national security law in Hong Kong. that really has taken a lot of what was. unique about Hong Kong away. It's really. part of under within the Chinese fold. Now, you know, we've sort of seen a move.

away from that possible strategy if it. ever existed that, you know, we're. seeing a lot more kind of threats to. Taiwan now that look, you you have to. rejoin us or else look what we're. capable of. I I think the days of trying. to pull Taiwan in through sweetness and. light are probably gone. >> Celia, thank you so much for your time. and expertise. Celia Hatton, our fellow. global news podcast presenter and. longtime China correspondent. Well, if. you enjoyed stories like this, then do. check out our global news podcast. You.

can download that wherever you get your. podcast from. And do like and subscribe. to our YouTube channel. And do drop us a. comment below if there are any stories. you'd like us to cover in more detail. For now, thanks so much for your time. and.