Trump-Xi Summit, Benioff: "Not My First SaaSpocalypse," OpenAI vs Apple, Multi-Sensory AI, El Niño

All right, everybody. Welcome back to. the number one podcast in the world, the. allin podcast. Episode 273. It's a huge week. Saxs is our show. We. got to get Mark Beni off, CEO of. Salesforce. >> I'm the only one left here. You're the. only one left. That's why that's how I. made it on. >> No software CEOs, right, to China. >> There's no software uh CEOs in China. >> Interesting. But did you get the invite? What's your what's your status with this. administration because you were. obviously very famous for, you know, being a Democrat on the left? Um, and.

>> I'm not a Democrat on the left. I never. have been. >> What are you talking about? You donated. to all these folks and now you're kind. of in Trump's camp. What is it? >> Listen, um, uh, the number one thing is, hey, I'm here to support the country. >> That's what I do. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, you're right in the middle. You have. uh an allegiance to America. >> I hope so. >> Yeah. >> I'm not a Democrat or Republican. >> You're an independent. >> I'm an American. >> Okay. I like it. Ben off got the invite. to the two hottest tickets. He got the.

invite to Windsor Castle in Tales and. then he got the invite uh when Prince. Charles came here too. I saw he was in. Tales then too. >> And also we were at that Saudi dinner. too. Weren't you there? >> I did not go to that one. All right. Well, we have a big docket here. The. Trumpi summit has begun. That is the. number one story right now after a. two-month delay because of the war in. Iran. This is the first visit to China. since 2017. Seventh face-to-face meeting for Trump. and President Xi. There are 12 hours, 15.

hours ahead of us. Today, Thursday was. officially day one. Here's what. happened. China agreed that the straight. of Hormuz should remain open with no. military commitment and that Iran should. not have a nuclear weapon. So, we're in. sync on that. On Taiwan, this is a. little spicy. She warned that quote if. handled poorly the two countries will. collide or even clash putting the entire. USChina relationship in an extremely.

dangerous situation. Poly market says. Taiwan is safe for 2026 only 6% chance. China invades this year on 23 million in. volume which is a lot of volume 17%. chance roughly triple. that something happens by the end of. 2027. There's been a lot of debate. Uh. some people say it will happen after. Trump is out of office. Some people. think it's going to happen while he's in. office on trade. She committed to buy.

more soybeans, US oil, LNG, and 200 Boeing jets. She said the. talks laid out a vision for. constructive, strategic, and stable. ties. Uh Trump was effusive in his. praise uh for his friendship, giving the. disclaimer that people don't like it. when he praises she. Let's stop here and. have a bit of a discussion. Freedberg, you uh have been a bit obsessed with. this relationship and the bipolar.

nature of it. What are your thoughts. here? And what is the goal for Trump? What is winning for Trump coming out of. this? What is winning for she? I mean, she made comments in his uh. opening remarks that it would be ideal. if the United States and China could. avoid the Thusidities trap, which as. you'll recall, we talked about with. Graeme Allison and we've talked about. several times over the last few years.

that as a a rising power meets a kind of. declining power, there's always some. moment where you end up in this kind of. state of conflict. And the question is, can the US and China avoid conflict and. find a path to cooperation, which has. happened a few times in history when we. found ourselves in this moment, but. doesn't often happen. And I think the. way to kind of think about the. opportunity is if you're in a resource. expansive world where you are increasing. productivity and increasing production. globally at an accelerating pace,

perhaps there's less of a reason to have. conflict. Perhaps there's a way that uh. both societies, both countries can. increase the quality of life for their. people without taking it away from the. other side. And in a world where you're. more resource constrained or resource. static, that becomes less possible. You. have to fight and grab land and grab. territory and grab resources from the. other side. And it seems like in this moment when we. are seeing these extraordinary.

technology shifts unlocked by AI and. automation and biotech and all of these. kind of moments of which could be true. abundance ahead of us. It seems like the. perfect moment to say hey maybe the. world can be more multipolar. It doesn't. need to be uniolar. It doesn't need to. be bipolar but everyone can participate. in the expansion of the pie. And I think. that that's kind of the idealistic way. to look at the opportunity in front of. the administration and Chinese. leadership right now. Is there a way to. kind of look at the next 30 years and.

ask the question, how do we all share. proportionally in growing the pie and. not find ourselves in a moment of. conflict where we assume the pie is. static? That's I think hopefully the. message that comes out of this from an. administration political perspective. It. just seems like this is going to be a. major coup for the president if he can. walk away with a series of trade deals. with China that increase job security, increase prosperity, increase income. levels, increase investment in America. and American jobs. It would be a huge.

win. And I think that's the tactical. stuff that people will be truly looking. for. And I think the big strategic. question which I care most about which. is avoiding conflict. Is there a way we. can chart an economic and cooperative. path that doesn't involve eating each. other and involves sharing in a bigger. pie? >> Chimoth, why is Trump bringing all of. these CEOs with him and what does. success look like uh coming out of this. meeting? >> I think that you find a resolution and a. path forward with China through economic. cooperation. It's the largest consumer.

economy in the world. It's still largely closed off. And so I. think what this is was about bringing. some amount of financial firepower with. them so that they could start to. penetrate that market. Planes, cars, chips, you know, very much hard. equipment type stuff. I've said this. before, but I think the Chinese are very. much a top- down confusion societal. philosophy, whereas Americans are much more bottoms. up kind of an individualist.

construction. The fact that we're so different. actually gives us a lot of room to find. cooperation and not find conflict. And I. think at the center of that is economic. cooperation. I had a friend call me this. morning, very prominent Democrat. And. you know, he was the one that called out. the media, which I was surprised by, and. he said, you know, the media gets it all. wrong because they're talking about why. is he bringing these CEOs? And instead. the reality is that the simplest and. shest path to a no conflict dant with.

China is economic entanglement and it. has to be birectional because really for. so many years it's been one way where. they're sending us the cheap goods that. they've wanted. So I think strategically it's good and I. think you know I'll just take a slightly. different take on what Freick said. I. think behind closed doors they're. probably just figuring out how to divide. the pie. >> Uh unpack that for a second. divide. which pie the the globe the economy the. the western hemisphere versus. >> look China China still needs a lot of. energy they also need a lot of critical.

technologies that America provides and. so I think that there's a trade there. and the quit proquo is there are certain. regions of the world where we want them. to deescalate their participation in. central South America being probably the. most important and then the second is. probably in the Middle East and then. maybe the third is just to find some. reasonable view of the Asia pack region. together and I think there's a trade. there to be done and in that you kind of. start to carve up the world into a. pretty easily identifiable bipolar.

construction. They also uh Mark need customers uh to. buy their goods and we've had a bit of a. uh mixed signals there. Tariffs. obviously last year sticking it to China. in a pretty hard way. the decoupling. after COVID. Hey, we need to be. independent energy, PPE, drugs, chips. from China. Now, we're kind of saying, hey, let's come to the table and build. connective tissue. So, sort that out for.

us on a business level. Should the two. countries be deeply entwined? And then. how do we manage having too much. dependency on China? Well, you heard it today from President. Xi when he said he wants a wider door. And that means that he wants the door of. business to open even wider between the. two countries. We have our absolute best. salespeople there. Not just our. president, who has to be one of the best. salespeople I've ever met, but also.

we've got Elon, we've got Jensen selling. chips, >> Kelly Ortberg selling planes, >> Kelly selling planes. He's already sold. 200. He wants to sell financial. services. >> Brian is selling soybeans. Brian Sykes, the CEO of Cargle. You know, Cargle is. the world's largest private company. based in Minneapolis and he is going to. come away selling a lot of soybeans. So, we have a you go through the list of the. CEOs. Each one is our best salesperson. in this category and they're going to. come back with orders and it's going to.

be amazing. And by the way, I think you. said it very well. you know, this idea. of business is this kind of greatest. platform for change. Um, they are. working together like never before. Don't forget, this isn't Trump's and. she's first meeting. These guys really. like each other. They are very connected. together. You can see they're smiling. with each other. They're very they have. a sales orientation. So, I expect a lot. of order books to come back. >> I have a question for you. Are you. allowed to sell software in China? We uh.

well with the right the Chinese have a. lot of data residency laws. So uh you. know we we do it is we don't have any. offices or employees in China. We never. have. The only time we end up with any. residue in China is when we buy a. company and they have a presence over. there and then we have to devest from. it. We have an exclusive partnership. with Alibaba. Everything just goes. through them and we we don't do anything. in China. >> Is it significant growing? Is it what. percentage of your revenue is it?

>> Yeah, it's it's great. You know, we have. it's a great partnership. Key customers. of Salesforce like Louis Vuitton, you. know, or Laura Piana, I know Chimoth. loves Laura Piana. >> Yeah. >> And you know, Laura Piana sells a lot of. sweaters in China and then, you know, in. all other stores all over the world, they use Salesforce, but in China, it's. Salesforce on Alibaba. >> It's still your code, but then it. resides in their servers for data. residency stuff. their data residency, their their partnership. It's a totally.

unique relationship. It's the only place. in the world that we do such a thing. >> Yeah. And it has to be all the data has. to be kept in China. All the data has to. be accessible by the CCP. >> That's why it's so extraordinary. By the. way, what Elon has, you know, Elon has. Tesla in China, no partnership. He's the. only one. He has a phenomenal. relationship with Shei. When you look at. she and um Elon together, notice how. differential and respectful they are of. each other. And here is these AI cars.

with all these cameras, Americanmade, you know, um Chinese factories driving. around China. That is pretty incredible. >> How do you think he pulled that off? Is. that just a one-off exception? >> I think Elon's the greatest salesman in. the world. That's how. >> I mean the cynical take on a chim would. be they wanted him there and they wanted. to study the company and the innovation. and they have now become the biggest. competitor uh with their EVs and so it.

is a pretty coopetition I guess it would. be the cynical way to do. >> I want one of those new BYD golf you. know uh uh what do you call those with. the doors that flip flip up. >> Gwing. >> Gwing I want one of those Gwing BYDs. they have some cool cars have you seen. those. >> They're cool, but they're not safe. >> They're incredible. >> They're talking in this in this they. they said they're talking about bringing. some of those cars to the US. That would. be incredible. >> Uh would hollow out the entire.

automotive industry here if we had. $20,000, $30,000 cars from China. It. would be the end of the US automotive. industry overnight. And uh Tim Cook's. there. He has to store all his data. there. That's been a pretty. controversial issue for him because. Freedberg, if anybody has private. information or is a dissident, Tim Cook. has to give that data over to the. Chinese Communist Party. How do you. think this plays in America visav the.

midterms? Freedberg, Americans feel. ignored, inflation over 3% and they look. at the Iran war as a betrayal by. President Trump and they look at China. as not material to their well-being. So. when you look at Trump being on a. six-month timeline for the midterms and. he's only got two more years in office. after that, you got she who's working. off of a hundredyear playbook. How does.

that dynamic play out with Trump and the. midterms and his core constituency, MAGA, which is now evolving into America. first, America only? And this kind of is. is rubbing that group of people the. wrong way. >> I think the second and third order. effects of anything that comes out of. China is what's going to be most. consequential to the average voter, which is job security and income. security and income growth. And then. cost of living impact. The cost of. living impact would be if there can be.

some deflationary effect from a trade. deal that makes access to goods lower. price for Americans. And then anything. that America is exporting, there's. increased demand. Like there's a. follow-on effect to the soybean export. market. There's a follow-on effect obviously to. the oil export market. There's a. follow-on effect to for example. technology and software being exported. So that increases economic productivity. in the US and increases job security. income. And then the other side of the.

trade deal is can we get stuff that. Americans really care about and make it. cheaper. Can people now buy stuff at the. store that drops in price by 30 40%. where we've kind of tariffed and reduce. trade that increases the price of. things. So if those deals kind of get. worked out, people will see things get. cheaper at the store and they'll feel. good about kind of their income. security. And I think that could be. positive. I think that's what's. ultimately going to make people make the. blue red decision when they go to the. polls in November. >> That's the schizophrenic nature of this. chimoth. We have Americans who very much.

want cheap goods from China and then we. have last year all these tariffs being. put on and we have this great. decoupling. So, how do you handicap the. midterms, Trump's timeline and she's. timeline and what their goals are and. then I guess we'll get to Taiwan after. that. >> I don't know. No, it's I think it's a. little bit above my pay grade. But what. I will say is that the midterms I think. are probably going to swing more based. on these recent jerrymandering rulings. from the Supreme Court and what happened.

in the Virginia Supreme Court and what's. going to happen in the state. legislatures of these red states and. some of these blue states more than. what's going to come out of this summit. with with President Xi. So let me just. put that over here. And I think that. money is getting organized. There was an. article in the New York Times this week. which really surprised me, but the. largest donor in the in this election. cycle is Andre and Horowitz. >> Yeah. What is that about? Yeah.

>> I think it's because they're they're. trying to establish themselves as part. of the financial firmament of America, which I think strategically as a. business makes a lot of sense. Like. they're in the AUM business, right? So. they can't stop at 100 billion of AUM. They're marching towards a trillion. they're going to be the next Blackstone, which I think is an incredible feat and. they're building a juggernaut of a. business. But I think they also realize. that politics is now a permanent part of. that if they're going to be investing in.

higher quantum more geopolitically. influenced parts of the capital cycle. and parts of the economy. So I think the. midterms are largely that the money. that's going to be raised plus the. gerrymandering that will get done and. undone over the next few months. Again I. think I think the the Chinese and the. and the Americans have a very strong. incentive to kind of divide up the. world. Like I think the future at this. point you have these critical resource. inputs. China has a strangle hold. You. have energy and.

intelligence AI where America has a. strangle hold on one and an effective. strangle hold on the other which is. energy and I think there's a trade there. to be done and as long as you can. negotiate what a reasonable give and. take is I think they're just going to. find common ground like does China. really need to be in Chile and Venezuela. and Panama? Probably not. Does America. have to have an incredibly strong point. of view about the straight of Malaa?

Probably not. And so there's probably a. trade to be done so that we can get. their rare earths, they can get some. more oil, everybody can be happy, and we. can all find abundance. >> Yeah. The the key issue here is China is. and most people are, you know, chinophobic, but China has serious. systematic issues with population, with. their real estate, with their GDP. All. of this is in decline. And I think she most of all is concerned. about another Tianaan Square if he.

doesn't get more people working. They've. had the largest growth of any middle. class. you know in history. They have the. largest middle class in the world. I. think uh you were sort of referencing. that Mark with luxury goods and luxury. goods providers are going there but it's. tenuous uh. >> and that's the number one by the way. that is the number one point of focus of. President Xi. President Xi's focus has. been getting 500 million people from. poverty into the middle class. >> It's not exactly how we think about the.

world in the United States. That's the. main focus of the political leader and. and he's achieved that. That that has. been an incredible accomplishment. >> and and but it's at risk right now. because their GDP is falling. They need. their factories to operate. They're. being undercut by other regions. And. then of course Taiwan is what they want. uh most of all and supremacy in you know. their part of the world. >> I'm not convinced of that actually. >> I think what they want Oh, I mean I. think we just kind of said it and to. summarize they they want to have you.

know economic success. They want to. continue to grow their middle class. They want to continue to have a healthy. economy. They want more trade. I thought. it was interesting that they're talking. about Trump is talking about not only. having the board of peace now he wants a. board of trade. That was a discussion. we've never heard before today. Then uh. we have she saying I want the wider. door. Then we have all these folks there. are selling their products. Two people. we didn't mention the co Visa and the. CEO of Mastercard are on the trip. Now.

why is that? Because if you look at you. know commerce in China it is dominated. by companies like Alibaba and and these. organization who use these super apps. It's not really all the way open for a. Visa and a Mastercard. That would be. incredible for those executives. So in. the same way that we want to sell. airplanes, we want to sell chips, Nvidia, the Qualcomm coristiano is also. there, we want to sell soybeans, we want. to sell payment services, we want to. sell everything. The more economic.

collaboration and cooperation you can. get between the two countries, the more. peace you're going to have. I think 100%. I agree. >> Three, three hard questions, Mark. Uh, should we be selling them the latest. chips? Yes or no? In your mind, >> I think it's irrelevant at this point. I. think that the Chinese models are as. competitive as these US models and. they've learned to make these models. without having the highest end chips. I. think the highest end chips is kind of. more of a ego gratification for us. We.

have Blackwell, we have this, we have. that. But when you look at their models, their models are excellent. They fast. follow us. You know, the best models we. had ago, they have now. >> Should they should we just sell it to. them since they're figuring it out. anyway, Mark? >> We probably should just sell whatever we. can at this point. Got it. >> And uh I think that as I said, I think. the more economic cooperation and. collaboration is better. And if you want. peace, I think that this. >> I think Taiwan, it's kind of a circle.

back to that. Yeah. >> Freeberg, uh, your take on chips. Should. we sell them latest chips? And then. Chimat, I want to get the answer to that. question from each of you. >> I think it's inevitable that they get. there. I, by the way, I do think this is. one of the key aspects of this deal. I've said this before, but maybe Taiwan. becomes less relevant to the US and to. China as both China and the US um, mainland FAB. So, as we build out our. own. >> manufacturing capacity here in the US, and I know we've struggled and there are. fits and starts and issues with it and. whatnot, but the the TSMC facility in.

Arizona is running, they're printing, and if it works and they figure out how. to scale it. There'll be other. facilities in the US and then China's. mainlanding with Huawei standing up a. lot of facilities. They've got a multi-. I think I talked about this on one of. the shows, a multi-deion. government investment in ensuring. competitiveness not just with fabs but. also with semiconductor manufacturing. equipment so that they don't get cut off. on the supply chain with companies like. ASML blocking sales into mainland. So as.

they build out their own semiconductor. capital equipment systems and their own. fabs, does Taiwan really matter? Is. there really that much of a security. risk to the United States and to China. in that sense? And perhaps what. everyone's focused on, which is this. pivot point around Taiwan. Maybe it's. not that the US is selling Taiwan down. the river, but it's just that no one. gives a anymore. So, you know, there may be this kind of cultural. moment for China where they want to at. some point say, "Hey, by 2040," which I. think is what I've heard, they want to. be able to kind of, you know, bring.

Taiwan fully into the sphere. maybe the. US shouldn't care that much at that. point from a economic and security. perspective. So I think that's that's. one of the things that's happening that. >> so you're in the camp of sell the chips. to them and it will demotivate the TSMC. or the capture of those fast. >> Put it this way. I think the more the. global productivity index can climb, the. better off all humans will be. So the.

question is, do you really want the west. to see their productivity index climb. and then you're effectively forcing. conflict and forcing issues with the. east? Or if we all grow our productivity. index, we all make more stuff, everyone. benefits, everyone has better jobs, everyone makes more money, everyone has. access to more stuff, the cost of goods. comes down for everyone, doesn't that. make the world a safer and more secure. place? >> Sure. So I think this idea that like. technology should be held to one uh side. of the world and not given to the other. side of the world is inevitably going to.

lead to conflict or increase the. probability of conflict. Whereas if you. let technology diffuse and proliferate, everyone benefits and conflict indices. go down. >> It's commoditized, you know, and. everybody has access to it. So then it. it becomes. >> you give everyone a higher standard of. living and you give everyone's economy a. boost and you give everyone less reason. to fight with each other. Since you went. there with Taiwan, should we take our. arm sales off of the table, Freedberg? And should we ask China to not sell arms. to Iran?

>> Yes, we should ask China to not sell. arms to Iran. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I don't know what there is. What is. there to talk about there? Because I. think what she wants is for us to not. sell arms to Taiwan. So, would you make. that trade, I guess, is what I'm saying. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good. question. And I think in that context. that's that's a nuance one. I don't. >> that's why I bring it up because that. seems to be. >> generally you're right. Yeah. I mean. generally that's probably a a trade that. you know that should be kind of trade do.

the deal. >> So you say make the trade. >> chimath. I mean I kind of know. >> we're 18 months from Taiwan not being an. important moment of conversation the way. it is today. Why 18 months? because we. are at a point where we're probably 1. to2 nanometers away from being able to. do what we need Taiwan to strategically. do for us. And so as we scale up our. chip fabs, as we get more capacity and. interestingly there are these orthogonal. technologies being developed. I don't.

know if you guys saw but neuralink was. showcasing now a machine that is. literally operating at the. almost nanometer scale to do the brain. operations for the implantation all. automatically. So when when you when you. have the dexterity and the capability. mechanically to make these things, the. real reason then is a very different one. than what it is today. Today it's. economic and if you take that off the. table, I think we'll have a very. different attitude to Taiwan. That's. number one. Number two, sell the chips. >> And the reason we should sell the chips.

is we want Nvidia to win. We do not want. to give enough oxygen for Huawei to then. all of a sudden emerge and have a. version of a chip that works. And what. Mark said is totally right. These models. are catching up. They're almost at the. same pace. So the more important thing, Jason, is probably we should all agree. is just like let's have a reasonable KYC. for how the models get used so that you. know somebody in a basement doesn't cook. up some boweapon. Meanwhile, sell the. chips. Proliferate. Let Jensen win. I'd.

rather he win than Huawei win. >> Mark, I'm going to give you the last. word, but I'm going to force you to. answer a hard question. China sets up a. blockade around Taiwan and they decide. they're taking it. Should the US defend. it? Yes or no? I I've said this for. years. I I don't agree with Neil. Ferguson on that point. I think that. this is a nonsense issue. I think China. and Taiwan will reconcile. I think that. uh Well, first of all, I do want to. schedule though Chimath for that neural. link. Um next Tuesday 5:00 we can drill. your brain. Chimoth, can I get you in?

>> What are you trying to do? Put some. empathy into Chimoth. I talked to Elon. He said it doesn't. You just drill right. in. There's a and boom. And then well, you can get hooked up. It is the. craziest thing. >> I know. I got you scheduled at 5:00 on. Tuesday tomorrow. Hold your hand if. you're too nervous. >> And by the way, finally had a hard literally like. for a even better show. >> Abs. It would be incredible. Yes. And uh.

I would laugh and I would giggle. We. could get into show tunes here. Free. break. I know you're um Yeah. not big on. on the show too. >> If I only had a heart. >> If I only had a brain. >> A heart. A brain. And what's the third. one? >> If I only had a neural link. >> You got to give you courage. REEDBERG. >> OKAY, move on. >> All right, let's move on here. >> Your By the way, I took kids.

>> Tim stayed home. I took his kids to the. Wizard of Oz at the sphere. It was. incredible. If you haven't seen it, >> yeah. do something enriching with my. kids or hit the crafts table. >> No, I I'll be honest with you. I get a. little freaked out in large. >> like groups of people. >> Yeah, I get I get a No, just just like. when there's a lot of people, I get very. nervous. >> Really? >> Is this because of your newfound. celebrity? Is this is that the issue or.

just always like No, I don't even want. to go there. I just have these bad. thoughts of like, oh my god, what if. something happens? How do we get out and. like. >> terrorist attack? panic disorder. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. You have panic disorder. >> Panic disorder. >> I don't I don't like these large spaces. with lots of people. I get a little. winded up. >> Anyway, your kids had a great time. Great show. >> Tony Robbins lives very near you, Shimoth. Don't you think we can get that. to happen? >> Yeah. Let's get Tony Robbins in there to. clear that blockage. You're a Tony. Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into. Tony Robbins? >> I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my.

conference this week. It was incredible. Actually, he did an incredible. presentation. >> Did he unlock for you your success? He. claims to that he has you on the roster. of $50,000 a year CEOs? >> I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins. So I mean. >> what percentage of your success is. attributed to Tony's mentorship? >> Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I. don't think there would be a sales. force. So there you go. >> Can you actually no jokes aside, can you. tell us like what like what like what. were those big kind of blockages and how. did you how did he help you or how did. you work through it?

>> Just focusing on hey the questions you. know the quality of your questions is. the quality of your life. It's that. insight and just are you asking yourself. the right questions. What do you want? What's important to you? How are you. getting it? What is preventing you from. having it? How will you know that you. have it? Just no one had ever said that. to me. And then it was just like clear. to me, wait, I need to write that down. Like what do I really want right now? What is my point of focus? >> And that is what gave me motivation as. soon as I got that clarity. I mean, a. lot of us do it automatically, but. that's not where I was when I was a kid.

That's for sure. >> Did you run across the coals? Did you do. any of that kind of stuff? >> Oh, I've many times. >> Really? >> Yeah, of course. >> Okay, there it is, folks. >> Hey, we can go together. >> Uh, absolutely. We had Tony on the show. I tried to get in there and understand. his psychology, but he just had us do. breathing exercises. All right. The uh. All-In Summit is happening again. Fifth. year in a row. Wow. We've been doing. this for a while. Allin.com/events. September 13th, 14th, and 15th. We'll.

have you back, Mark, in year six. But. when you score so highly on a keynote, we give you two years off so that we can. build up the anticipation. So coming in. 2027, our guy Mark Benning off. But for. this year, uh, allin.com/events. Okay. Topic two, AI's impact. >> By the way, real quick, can can I just. do a quick PSA? >> A public service announcement coming. >> Public service announcement. >> Yes. >> Nick, just pull up this link. This dog. named Scooter needs a home. >> Okay. >> Promise my wife I do this. Don't get. Don't get mad at me. This dog named.

Scooter needs a home. He's in Baldwin. Park. Dog's about to die. Lives in. Baldwin Park at the Animal Care and. Control. They're overwhelmed in LA. There are so many homeless street dogs. that are being collected. They're all. being put to sleep. >> Wow. >> Someone give this dog a home. >> Gorgeous dog. >> Scooter. >> Good dog. >> Link. Link will be on the YouTube. channel. Thank you very much. >> Are you getting a little emotional, Freeberg, about this dog being put down? >> I just don't like these, you know, all. these street dogs. like they they didn't. choose that situation they were in and. then they all end up kind of getting. pulled in by animal care and control and.

then they all get put to sleep. Kind of. sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You. got to have a heart. >> No, I have a big heart. Chimath, it's. $10,000 to keep these dogs alive for. another week. Can we count on you for. that donation? >> Any purebred white golden retrievers in. that bunch? >> No, they're just muts. Just muts. >> We have a cat that we got at the shelter. actually. >> Kind of a story. walked into the shelter. looking for a cat. All of a sudden, we're in the shelter. This cat's like. coming at, you know, my kids and all of. a sudden they're, "Okay, we'll take this. cat." What is this cat's name?

>> This cat's name is Cloud. >> Cloud. >> That's our cat. >> Wow. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. We have Cloud the cat. >> All right. I like it. That's awesome. >> All right. AI's impact on software. rippling through the market. Mark, you're on the front lines here. >> Thank you for reminding me. >> Yeah. Well, I mean in pain and suffering. are lessons, right? I think the Buddha. and Tony Robbins both taught us that and. the only way to the other side is. through as you know, Mark. So, Salesforce down a whopping 37% 90.

billion in losses for you. service now. 42% workday 45%. 180 billion in market cap's been lost. and the assumption mark is that AI is. going to make it unnecessary for you to. use Slack or Salesforce or HubSpot. whatever it happens to be that you'll. just ask your AI to solve this for you. and we'll all look at a piece of glass. and have no actual software the AI will. just tell us what to do what's your. response to the fear the criticism and.

how are you managing this massive change. internally? >> You're right. It's the SAS apocalypse. Um, I mean, it's not my first SAS. apocalypse, honestly, but it's the. current SAS apocalypse. So, we are all. now drinking at Salesforce Esprillas. And, uh, we actually have a pet. Sasquatch as well. Yeah, we're all a. little more sassy. That's what I would. say. That's number one. >> You bring the sass to sass. >> We got to bring sass to sassy, you know. And then, >> well, you've always been a sassy guy. >> Yeah. And then number two is look the.

market is rerated. It's not a mystery. Everybody knows you know you guys have. been talking about it for a while. I've. been living it. So the market software. market's rerated. It happens every now. and then. There are cycles. You know. I've been doing Salesforce for 27 years. enterprise software for 40 and the. market's rerated. So you mentioned. HubSpot. They're trading at two times. sales. I've never seen that before. They. just had a great quarter. We saw a lot. of great quarters. I looked at the top. 10 major enterprise software companies.

They all had great quarters and they're. all trading in two time sales. So why? Because of everything you just said. There's like, you know, a hypnosis. around AI and, you know, we haven't seen. it show up in the numbers yet. If it. shows up in the numbers, maybe people. will be right. Right now, all we know is. there's still a lot of enterprise. software being sold in the world. >> So you've been through this. It's not. your first time. >> This is not my first apocalypse. I mean, I remember the cases apocalypse of 2020.

when COVID happened and all of it, you. know, everything collapsed. There was. the great cases apocalypse in 2016. What's that? >> In all sincerity, what's your strategy. and how do you deal with, >> you know, your internal team? Obviously, they are compensated through, you know, stock and this is headwind and you have. competition for employees from OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX. So, how do you. deal with uh rallying the troops and. then how do you develop a strategy? >> Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot.

easier to be a private company right now. where you don't have to be rationalized. by the public markets. If you're in the. public markets and you get rerated, that's the reality of being in the. public markets. And I think that for. what I tell my employees, what I just. told my employees is look, you can't get. drunk on the stock price. If you are. like focused on today all the time and. that is how you're getting, you know, your emotional state, it it's not going. to work for you. You have to find a. different anchor. So I try not to pay. really a lot of attention to it. I'm.

focused on my customer success. How is. our revenue? Look, we'll do over 46. billion this year, more than 16 billion. in cash flow. We have more than 83,000. employees. These are the things that I'm. focused on. What is the level of. customer success that we're delivering? That's a really important I can't. control the stock price. There's nothing. I can do. And for our employees, they. can't control it either. That they need. to believe in the company and the. quality of the success they're. delivering to customers in the long. term. And then you look at the market,

you look at these other companies, not. just us. They're doing great. And I. mean, I saw some great numbers, but it. doesn't really matter. The market's. rerated. >> Well, you've got all that free cash. flow. You've been great at acquisition. So, I'm sure you're uh. >> I've bought some great companies, by the. way. Everything's a little cheaper. I. like that. >> Yeah. Chimoth, what's your take on this? You've been pretty critical of the SAS. space in previous episodes, pointing. out, hey, how durable are these. revenues? So, what's your take?

>> I think the low end of the market is. basically finished. I think there there. is no safe space. I think the high end. of the market where Mark operates, where. the large monoliths operate is quite. safe and the tell was this week. The the deployment company deal. basically shows you what OpenAI is. running into. So, you know, you have to. put in $4 billion. You get all of these. folks. You gave them a 17.5% preferred.

guaranteed return for what? essentially. to stand up a competitor to Ernston. Young, Anderson, Deote, PWC, Cognizant, etc. If you just look at that, that. doesn't actually mathematically make. that much sense if you look at what. those companies are actually trading at. But why is OpenAI doing this? I think. why is because at the high end of the. market where all the action is, what. people are finding is, hey, hold on a.

second. This is a lot harder than we. thought. It's not like boop boop boop. put in a put in a prompt and beep boop. it all works. It's not how it works. >> And so I think I think we're. >> I think we're a little oversold. >> And I now I think this consolidation and. the rerating can happen in the opposite. direction. So what is the opposite. trade? >> The opposite trade is who has. constructive net dollar retention, who. has negative churn that's been really. predictable, which is a way of saying.

who has the best relationships. meaning. they're inside the CXOs and the seauite. They have relationships with the CEOs. and they're trusted and they've been. around for 20 years. Those guys, I. think, are positioned to crush because. eventually, Jason, the next trade that. has to happen is when the public markets. become a little bit less breathless. about AI and they ask one simple. question. Okay, guys, you've spent $3. trillion in the last four years. What is. the ROI of these tokens?

And what's going to happen is they're. going to have to go to guys like Mark. and other people and say, "Please sell. my tokens." And that's the next shoe to. drop. If you if you had to ask me. So I. think you're going to see these revenues. which are like way out of whack like the. multiples on revenue, multiples on. assets, multiples of they're not even. multiples of those will come way back. down and I think these go back up and. you'll find a balance. >> Yeah. And you've uh initiated what could. only be described as an unprecedented.

massive stock buyback mark 50 billion. >> I think it's the one of the largest in. history. Yeah, we we're you know we we. want to buy back as much as we can and I. would just say that you know look at a. high level look there's awesome new. capabilities like these coding agents. are awesome. Enthropic is awesome. like. I am going to probably use $300 million. of Enthropic this year at Salesforce. coding. Everything's going to be cheaper.

to make. It's more efficient. I can do. things that I just could not do before. I can go faster than ever before. I can. implement my software and sell it at the. same time. I've never been able to do. that before. I can break through. obstacles that I've had, you know, just. by focusing because I have coding agents. and humans together working together. Today I have humans, agents and headless. platforms all interoperating never. before. So the opportunity for my own.

company and the efficiency that I have. in my own company in service and support. in distribution in marketing across the. board is unprecedented. What I can do. for our customers unprecedented and you. know to that point my gosh have you seen. Anthropic? I mean it is a rocket ship. that will not stop because you can use. this product to do these incredible. amazing things and then complement it. with platforms like ours. It's you know. it's it's it's it's impossible to.

describe what we're going to be able to. do for customers. It's going to be. awesome. >> and never waste a crisis. You've been. super focused on the efficiency of the. company, a headcount, share buybacks, and I'm guessing you're looking at M&A. So, it's not your finished up one of our. biggest deals ever, Informatica. I think. it was eight or nine billion dollars. It's been in it's been awesome because. none of this stuff works if you don't. have context. You know, the AI is very.

probabilistic. that is it can kind of. kind of figure things out but it needs. to be grounded in real data and it needs. to have that semantic layer. That means. it needs to be locked down into the. truth into a single source of truth or. it just cannot work well. And so our. customers want more harmonized data, federated data, integrated data. So we. bought Informatica. Our customers want. our apps to use those large language. models to be able to provide not just. automation to their employees but also.

to their agents just like we just said. So like if you call 1800 no software. right now for the first time in 27 years. you talk to agent force hey agent force. what's happening but then after it. authenticates you and you get in the. system and it doesn't know who you are. then boom it'll autoes escalate you to a. human being who says oh I can see. everything you've been doing oh yeah you. just need to resolve this this and that. and so that trinity of the phone the web. and the human being are all together.

it's all made possible buy this AI. We. just could never do that before. That is. awesome. >> Was it controversial, Mark, to make. Slack headless? Was that a big decision. or was that a was everybody kind of. mostly on board with that? >> Well, we were the first to, you know, the way that our platform is architected. and Chimoth, you know it so well cuz. you're coding your coding agents and the. company you're building can run right on. top of it and build awesome stuff also. So, you know, number one is we were the. first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a.

REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We. always wanted to have a platform that. had every API possible. And our apps are. not hardcoded where we had to cut the. top off of them. They've always be. embedded inside our platform. So now we. can stream our apps out through a new. API called AXL and I can manifest it. into any large language model or device. or anything and it just works better. actually. >> I think that you know when Jack Dorsey.

wrote that memo Jal and part of what he. said is. >> he he's going to try to run his company. by building a world model. Yes. My. initial thought was, well, where is the. context, Mark? What you said before, where's the semantic understanding to. create a world model? And a lot of it. for a lot of companies is actually in. Slack. >> It's in Slack and email. Yeah, those two. places. >> I showed you that Slackbot, Jason. I. mean, the thing is all because you run. your company on Slack, all your DMs, all. your channels, we're reading that now.

through the AI and we can tell you more. about your business than you know. >> because Slackbot is reading stuff that. >> you know, nobody knew what was happening. and like I'm using that myself, but I. can then connect it into other things. So, I have the ability to go into. Salesforce and Google and everything. And so, when I'm on Slackbot, I can ask. it any question about my company. What. are my top five deals? What am do what. are my employees upset about? What are. the top three things I need to focus on?

And then boom, I get the information. because it has the data. >> I think you should really look at SL. making Slack more open and cheaper and. getting more of that context because. there are limitations in terms of. getting your data out based on like. which plan you're on. It's just too. convoluted. But once I upgraded to a. higher plan and you know it's whatever 6. 12 18k for our small company I was able. to get more and more context to my.

openclaw plexity computer and claude we. and we're testing all of those and today. I wrote literally before I got on the. show a new prompt that is every two. hours in our Slack tell me what. decisions are being made who's making. those decisions um and what you would. handicap those decisions. If you were my. chief of staff, if you were a CEO or if. you were a board member and I created. personas to now evaluate decision-. making going on just. >> I have to show you the new version of.

Slack. You're going to love it, Jason. And you know that open AI and. enthropping and every AI company is. standardized on Slack. Yes. >> And by the way, and our core sales cloud. and service clouds as well. >> So I got to show you what we're doing. Yeah. So fun. >> What's your advice to let's say you were. running a software company that was like. before the AI wave and you're private, right? There's a bunch of these. companies that were supposed to go. public, didn't go public. What should. they do? Like what do those boards do?

What. >> they here's some Kleenex for them for. all their tears. >> because they're I mean I talked to these. CEOs. They're crying. What my market. cap? I'm not getting paid for my work. Guys, grow up. You know, that's what I. love about the public markets. They. rationalize everything all the time. So. >> great, be in the public markets. You. want to be in a private market. Your. valuation is fantasy land until. somebody's actually going to pay you. So. I just tell them, hey, you got to focus. on your revenue, focus on your. customers, focus on your cash flow,

focus on your profitability, focus on. your innovation. How are you going to. add value to your customers? That's. what's really truly important. >> Freeberg, any thoughts from you? We're. doing a big Salesforce implementation at. O'Hollow and I I would say that one of. my observations over the last six months. because we've talked a lot about using. these generative tools is we've kind of. dropped all the vertical software but. we're doubling down our investment in. horizontal tools. So like we're. investing heavily in these platform.

capabilities that then we're able to. build apps and workflows on top of them. that are specific to our business rather. than try and buy an offtheshelf app or. workflow tool. So I think that there's. kind of a really interesting moment. right now where we talked about this. last time you could kind of discern. between founder and non-founder. enterprise software. I also think that. there's this kind of vertical horizontal. shift where they're kind of trading the. same right now but you could probably. break them. You could break that trade. So, I think there's probably a good. arbitrage there. >> I think everyone who wants to sell those.

potato seeds, you know, is going to need. >> some tools to sell them. But the thing. that's kind of cool is, you know, we. have 15,000 salespeople now. So, they're. out there selling these products like. Slack and selling to David and so forth. But here's the thing that's interesting. In the last 27 years, we calculated. somewhere between 20 to 30 million. people, we didn't call back. We did not. call them back. >> because we didn't have the people to do. it. So just this week I called back.

50,000 people, you know, just through. agents so I can qualify. I just bought a. company called qualified so I can. qualify the agents, call people back the. BDR, the SDR function. I can go. outbound. I can do things I could never. do before. That is made possible by this. AI automation linking it then to the. apps. You can go to another level. Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. I want to get. everybody's take on this. Open AAI in a. breaking news story is considering suing.

Apple over their Chat GPT partnership. As we all know, two years ago, Apple and. Open AAI announced Chat GPT would. integrate into Siri, iOS, MacOSS. But. according to Bloomberg, the deal has. gone so poorly for OpenAI that they. might sue Apple for breach of contract. Here are OpenAI's gripes. Apple chat GPT. integration within Siri requires users. to specifically say chat GPT to get. results. We probably all experienced. this if we haven't given up on Siri, which is the worst personal assistant.

ever created. Uh Apple hasn't it's. discretionad to the highest level. Just. discretad with this product. How do you. get there first and you remain worst? Apple hasn't promoted the integration at. all and users are still overwhelmingly. going to the standalone chat GPT app or. others. OpenAI. expected billions of subscription. revenue from the deal and it hasn't come. to fruition. According to Bloomberg,

Apple's side of the story is, hey, they. have concerns about Open AI's privacy. practices. Maybe they don't trust the. guy in charge over there, which was a. reoccurring theme in the lawsuit. And. they're annoyed that OpenAI, and here is. the palace entry, they're upset that. OpenAI is building hardware to compete. with Apple and that they recruited their. design guru, Johnny IV. Mark Beni off, you know, the players.

What is going on here? Yeah, >> you got to trust Sam Alman and Open AI. I love him. But let's just upscale this. conversation just one second. Listen, what has happened? What happened is we. have these LLMs. They starting to come. out come out. Every company's kind of. chosen a slightly different path. You. had Elon, he went out, he had Grock and. he kind of started building these. companions and sex bots and all this. kind of stuff going on. And that was a. huge focus of his, the sexbot focus.

Then you kind of had OpenAI and they. were doing the Sora video thing and. they're also doing ad networks and crazy. stuff like that. Then you had Gemini and. they had the Nano Banana and then. finally you've got Enthropic and they go. we don't know about those sex bots and. we don't know about Nano Banana but. we're going to do coding agents. And it. turned out Enthropic was right. And all. of a sudden the rocket ship took off and. now everybody's like, "Whoa, where did. Enthropic go?" Oh, whoa, they're way up. there. And then they're all like, "Where.

are all they going to do coding agents. to?" And now they're all resetting and. kind of hitting their buttons and going, "Coding agents. Everybody focus, focus. Kill Sarah, kill this. Get rid of that. Sex bots off." You know, cursor on. Yeah. And that's where we are right now. And so everybody, look, this is what's. cool about right now is that everybody, it's such a dynamic moment in our. industry. It's so exciting that people. have to pivot and you have to be ready. to focus and refocus and constantly ask.

the question like, "What do you want. right now?" And everyone is changing. what they really want. And if you looked. at where everybody was a year ago and. where they are now, they're in a totally. different place cuz we all know that. when Enthropic 46 hit, boom, everyone. could code in their companies. And. before that, they really couldn't. It. was a little bit of a productivity. improvement, but not as much as we. wanted. Now everybody sees this and. goes, "Wow, this is unbelievable." We're. even working on technology inside Slack.

to make it easier for everybody to code. So I think it's going to be really. >> breaking news. Breaking news there. >> You're going to see some cool stuff with. Slack and Code. I'm not ready to talk. about it yet, but there's no question. that uh we are in a new moment in. coding. I mean Chamas got a whole. company around it. A lot of people have. companies around it. There's going to be. before coding was all about humans and. like that's where I started. I was 15. years old, Berlin game high school on. hands-on keyboard writing video games,

you know, basic 68,000 6502, you know. No, no, now it's like. everyone. >> How's that changed your org? Is it the. product manager, the developer, or the. UX designer? >> The creator, or did it all blend into. one blended? And who wins? Who wins? It's all blended together. And by the. way, to to Mark's point, the hands-on. keyboard thing, you know, most of our. engineers just speak. They So it's like. And so, you know, one of our guys just.

has a foot button operated thing and it. just like. that, >> too. Yeah. Whisper. That's all they do. Flow plus. >> It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper. flow and talking. There is no cans on. keyboard anymore. >> All right. So, let's get back to this. story here. >> We're going for dolphin flow at. Salesforce. >> Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you. Aalo. Um, Freeberg, two questions. One, now that Sam has shut down the sex. spots, how are you filling that void? And then number two,

thank you, Jama. And number two, what's your take on the. strained relationship here between. OpenAI and the world and specifically. the Apple world? >> I don't know what to tell you. This that. there doesn't seem to be a lot of. long-term partnerships with Open AI. That's a very uh generous way to say it. What should Apple do? Should they just. go back to the loving arms of Google. where they made a hundred billion. dollars being partners with them on the.

search default your alma. >> I don't know what to tell I mean look at. the end of the day I think Google has a. real opportunity to integrate a Gemini. assistant into all of your personal. information and Gemini and calendar. >> your Google drive your Google photos. where all of your personal information. sits it can become your your point of. calendaring your point of asking it. questions about your personal. Hey, when did I email this person, etc. And in the enterprise context, I think. that's also up for grabs with G Suite.

And so, Google has a real chance to kind. of own that assistant interface. Maybe. Salesforce does too, Mark. Apple. obviously has an embedded install piece. How many people are using Apple services. for doing all of their mail, for. calendaring, for storing their information? I think a. good number. >> Yeah. So that may end up becoming kind. of the way that the world silos out is. like you'll have an assistant, but the. assistant for it to be truly useful to. you individually, it has to have access. to all of your information. Whether it's.

in an enterprise context or a personal. context, Apple is probably going to need. to either build their own or white label. with a partner, could be anthropic, could be someone else. >> to get this to really work. But but. they're going to be up against a. formidable competitor is my point. because I think Google Assistant is. going to end up be being kind of a real. kick-ass product once they get this. flywheel going. Apple has the clearest. path to becoming, you know, a top two or. three player in AI simply by buying. something like Perplexity or Mistrol or. or or some AI lab and then using their.

hardware footprint, which is. extraordinary. I just got this MacBook. with 48 gigs of RAM on it with an M5. It. is unbelievable. And the new ones with. the the Studio coming out are going to. have a terabyte of RAM. they are going. to have a clear path to maintaining your. privacy running local models and that's. going to solve people's problems. It's. going to be very easy to index all your. images without giving the data to OpenAI. which nobody trusts or giving it to.

Gemini. And that's I think a big part of. why they picked the current CEO is. because he's an engineer and. hardwarebased. I I think the future of. this is going to be local models running. on extraordinary desktop hardware. And. if you have employees on this level of. hardware running these models local like. I have started to do, they become 10. times more valuable than the employees. not running it. I I think Apple's my. choice for the next year. >> I'm not a huge believer in these local. models. And the the only reason why is I. think you want persistence. You have.

multiple devices. You have multiple. persona. You're using a web browser in. one instance. You're using a different. computer at home in the other. And the. idea that you don't have persistence. that follows you around in 2026, I think. is a breaking feature. So, I think. you're not going to lug around a 5B. MacBook Pro everywhere you go so that. you can get knowledge. Oh, wait. You're. asking, "Oh, wait. I got a diagnosis. from my doctor. Hold on a second.". >> I don't think that's. the game on the field. The game on the.

field though is. >> you will uh be able to use iCloud for. this as well. So, it's going to be, you. know, effortlessly. >> So, well, look, give me your opinion on. this. I think the thing that you're. assuming is that these form factors. don't need to change. And I just wonder. like, don't we have an iPhone moment. that we're just all going to be. surprised by where somebody shows up and. they're like this thing and you're like, "Oh my god, that's the thing." Do do you. know what I mean? like yeah that that's.

I. >> there's enough ingredients here where. somebody's going to cook something up. and then you have to think about Jason. the sunk cost of like you know look. Apple is incredible. but there that's the product of 40 years. 30 years of meticulous process. optimization. what do you do if the form factor is. totally different and the nature of the. device is different how do you pivot. that organization. >> you're hitting on something very. important and it dovetales with another. story on the docket mirror Mrage. released thinking machines new real time.

world. >> that was impressive. >> and this is super impressive and Apple. at the same time has patented putting. cameras into your AirPods so you're. right and then I use this plug pin I've. talked about it before. >> these persistent hardware devices the. watch the earpieces are going to know. your entire reality they're going to. monitor your entire desktop and this is. going to lead to a a use of tokens that. would be a thousand times what user. business users are currently using.

because the way mirror's and we should. have her on the pod or at one of our. events. The way her model works. Freedberg is it's watching your desktop. It's listening to all the voices and. then it's watching your webcam all at. the same time and every 200 milliseconds. it's uploading it to two different. models. One is deep thinking and looking. backwards, you know, at a maybe a 30-. secondond clip and the other one's in. real time. that will 1,000x the need for. tokens if people are doing this for 8.

hours a day cuz it's not the turnbased. here's my latest prompt here's my. question I got a response it's in real. time always querying an LLM which is. going to require a hardware upgrade to. the average desktop Mark Beni off what. are your thoughts on this brave new. world. >> it's one small step for man one giant. leap towards AGI I think that you said. really well. I mean the we are in the. we've been so kind of think that LLM is. the beall end all. We're going to go to.

AGI. I don't really understand how large. language models which are only about. language and words and we know how it. works. It's one word one word therefore. the next word is this is going to get us. to where we want to go to which is. minority report or um. >> agreed. >> all the science fiction movies that. we've seen. But what we saw and and I. think Jason you'd really articulated. that super well by the way multiensory. models and multiensory models. Well, here's a good one. Oh yeah, me. I'm a. multiensory model in a biological.

computer. I'm a multiensory model. I've. got these eyes, ears, mouth, you know, work. Sometimes some brain, heart, whatever. And some other things going on. too that I don't even understand. And. it's all running in this biological. computer. I'm not exactly a large. language model, though I do have one. sometimes. So I would say that. multi-ensory models are the next big. wave for AI and then but we're still not. at AGI at that point. But those demos. like the demo of that model that was.

pretty everyone should see like that was. pretty awesome. And then I think we can. kind of say hm where are we now on this. on the path? But I think every model. company is kind of go hold on pivot you. know again pivot like saying pivot. everybody's pivoting and you're going to. have to pick your poison and where where. are you going next you know and you. can't do everything you can't. >> you said you were spending 300 million. on tokens with anthropic. Now imagine.

what this would do to an average, you. know, employee if they needed a thousand. times the tokens they have now. So. instead of spending 150k in tokens, you. got to spend, you know, a hundred. million. But you have. >> I don't think that's true. I I don't. think that that I think we're getting. brainwashed on that. >> Okay. So explain. >> I think that's a mistake to think that. way. See, I think we are wasting a lot. of these tokens. So my coding here's my. I think I convince you this. So here's a. here we're using $300 million of.

enthropic this year and we're coding. we're coding we're coding right the vast. majority of those tokens don't need to. go to enthropic there needs to be some. intermediary layer layer that's saying. oh oh that one has to go to enthropic. but these ones can handle by smaller. models. that can route it to the most affordable. for the job it's such an early moment. you know it's an early moment and you're. and I want to connect back to what you. said before which was brilliant Jason. which because the importance of the edge. because the edge and the cloud are going.

to come together. Okay. And yes, you're. going to have more distributed. intelligence. It's going to work. together. That's going to makes a ton of. sense what you said. What Chama said was. also completely right. You were both. right. Then you combine it to this idea. Let's put it together where we're going. Yes, we're going to have more. distributed intelligence. We're going to. have intelligence on the edge. We're. going to have multiensory models. And. yes, you're going to do coding. And it's. going to be more efficient though. So to. think that it's going to be always so.

expensive, that is just the moment of. time that we're at right now. And I. think there's going to be a hot new. company that's going to come along and. say this. I'm going to sit between you. and Anthropic and Open AAI and I'm going. to make sure that they you only need. their tokens when you actually need. them. >> And that is not really where we are. right now. >> Does that make sense what I'm saying? Like you're like%. >> it's like oh I need a shower and Okay, great. All the water. No, no, no. I just.

need some water. I don't need all the. water. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. Listen, we uh have two final. topics here. We could talk about. anthropic unrolling the dark SPVS and. the impact that has on the market. Or we. can go to everybody's favorite science. corner. >> Well, do both. Just do a quick uh around. the around the neighborhood. >> Yeah. Okay. Lightning round on uh we'll. do SPVS last. Freeberg, what do you got. in Science Corner? Everybody, all the. all the Freedberg fans are just.

destroyed when we skip it. So, let's. give. >> a good one. Mark, do you like Science. Corner? No, you do. >> I do. >> Come on. Yeah. >> Only the oceans. >> Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon. Valley. He loves it all and he wants to. hear more. >> Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we. become half as good as you? >> I'm not a good sal. I'm like a I'm a a. geek. >> You are, but you know how to. >> call it a Tony Robbins seminar. Let's. go. Walk over the coals together. Let's. roll. >> We're all going to Tony. Put out the. coals. We're walking across them.

>> Nick, let's pull up the first chart. This science corner is about the dreaded. El Nino season that is coming up. And so. this is a forecast for sea surface. temperature anomalies. And basically. what this means is that the ocean at. this point has heated up so much that. there's now a forecast on ocean. temperatures that are going to exceed. anything we have seen in recent history. So we're kind of looking at temperatures.

that might be 4° above normal. That. doesn't sound like a lot, but let's just. look at this image. That top image is. the sea surface temperature anomaly. That means how different the sea surface. or the the ocean temperatures are. Why. does that matter? And this is compared. to 1877 when we had the biggest El Nino. year ever. And I'll explain what that. means in a moment. But why does this all. matter? The reason is the oceans are the. battery of weather. What happens at one. part of the year is that the oceans. absorb heat energy and absorb absorb.

absorb gets hotter and hotter and hotter. and then that heat energy is released. into the atmosphere and then the. atmosphere drives the weather events. that happen all over the world and it. becomes somewhat predictable that you. can estimate what the weather over the. next year is going to be like based on. how the temperatures are sitting in the. ocean today. And at this point there is. so much excess energy stored up in the. oceans. I'll give you guys a statistic. It's about 11 million terowatt hours. The whole planet Earth uses 25,000.

terowatt hours in a year. So 11 million. extra terowatt hours of energy is. currently stored up. That's 500 years. worth of human energy in this ocean. And. over the next few months, that energy is. going to be released into the. atmosphere. And that will absolutely 99%. confidence that will make the upcoming. year the hottest year on record by far. that humans have ever experienced or at. least that we've experienced in recent. history where we didn't have data going. going back a long time. It changes the. trade winds which changes how a lot of.

the weather evolves from a normal. season. It changes the moisture in the. atmosphere in certain parts of the. world. And I'll just give you some. highlights of what this means. Over the. coming year, there will be major. atmospheric river events where you just. get water dumped on you in the southwest. in California and the Gulf Coast. You'll. have very low snowfall and very high. heat waves in the northern part of the. US going up to Canada. You guys remember. all those fires a couple years ago in. Canada. Interior regions of the US like. in Phoenix and and so on. They're.

already seeing temperatures at 106. degrees in May. A super El Nino like is. forecasted for this year could extend. that duration of these heat domes which. could create temperatures that we've. never seen in those areas. Southern. Argentina, Chile, Brazil could see. record shattering heat waves. And this. is where things start to get a little. nasty because when that happens, the. crops start to fail. And in many parts. of the world, Brazil, India, Australia, these are critical uh local consumption. for large populations, but also major a. export markets. So if Brazil's crop.

fails, if Australia's wheat crop fails, Australia's wheat crop goes to places. like Indonesia and the Philippines. Hundreds of millions of people depend on. that that wheat crop. Hundreds of. millions of people depend on the exports. out of Brazil. Brazil is the world's. largest a exporter. And the scariest one. of all is if the monsoons fail, which is. now a very high probability event in. India. 150 million farmers in India that. depend on their agricultural output or. they don't make any money, they can't. survive. and one and a half billion.

people that depend on that food. So the. importance of this El Nino event goes. beyond just like an interesting weather. anecdote. But if you think about the. second and third effects of this over. the next year, you could see energy. prices spiking and electricity spiking. and the grid failing in parts of the. southwest, commodity prices spiking all. over the world. And then you would see. places like uh India, the Philippines, Vietnam starting to face some sort of. unrest if there isn't enough food supply. that's coming into those markets. And. then the question in India is a really.

nasty one because there isn't a really. good solution. India and markets like it. that are significantly dependent uh on. having their monsoon event but also are. currently facing a shortage of nitrogen. based fertilizer because of the crisis. with Iran and the straight of Hormuz. which we've talked about as a double. whammy. So over the next year in South. Asia you could see a calorie deficit and. a major kind of economic crisis that. starts to emerge. So, this El Nino. event, I just wanted to kind of bring it. up as an interesting science corner. because the data now seems pretty.

confirmed that over the next few months, we're going to have this record-breaking. El Nino and these are the sorts of. consequences that will play out over the. next year. >> This is scary. God damn. What do. you do about the the food problem? That's a big problem. >> That's a big problem. And this is the. commodity markets are going wild for. this right now. >> Did this did this happen the last time. we had an El Nino? >> Yes. So when we have El Ninos, there's a. severity of these sorts of events. happening. >> No, I mean, did we have a food shortage. problem in the last El Nino?

>> Oh, yeah. When we have El Ninos, there's. food shortages that come out of. Australia, Brazil. You see these events. That's a regular part of the the thing. The problem this year is the index is so. off the charts. It is so far beyond. anything we've seen and it's correlated. obviously with the severity that it. triggers a crisis that may be, you know, really difficult to manage in a lot of. places. So the US is a net a exporter. So from a US perspective, our big issues. to worry about are the fire season. By. the way, this does decrease Atlantic. hurricanes. You're going to have fewer. hurricanes this year in the uh in the.

south, but you know, you have these kind. of major storm events that happen in. California, the heat waves, electricity. prices. We're probably more stable than. other parts of the world. But think. about the Brazil, the a export market is. such a significant part of the economy. and Brazil has a debt problem that this. could end up becoming an economic. problem in some parts of the world in. including Brazil. So the the commodity. markets are trading this El Nino event. pretty actively right now. It's become. kind of a focal area for a lot of folks. in in commodity markets. Can your super. seeds help or no?

>> That's a longer term solution. But I. mean look, we're like at the end of the. day having um this actually a good. point, but having genetics a crop. genetics that can adapt to a more. rapidly changing climate is going to be. critical over the next couple of. decades. Uh that's a big kind of macro. for. >> another part of this Freedberg that as. certain places heat up they actually. become viable places to put crops i.e. Canada or the northern part of the. United States. So we're seeing the.

actual places you can grow certain crops. independent of gen genetic modification. is expanding. In other words, farmlands. expanding because of global warming. >> Right? So we increasingly grow soybeans. in Canada. That was not the case. uh two. decades ago through both plant breeding. where we've made the genetics adapt but. also the warmer temperature the shorter. winters and whatnot they've been able to. grow that that crop further north but if. you guys go back a couple of years there. were major heat waves and droughts in. Australia. >> huge fires yeah.

>> huge fires but remember that wheat goes. to Indonesia it goes to Vietnam it goes. to these countries with hundreds of. millions of people dependent on it and. then they got to go scramble and find it. elsewhere now on a global basis there's. always a a bit of a give and a take but. in a year like this when you have this. much energy pumped into the atmosphere, you may not have the given the take and. that's where things start to buckle. >> All right. So, yeah, it's just like an. early warning sign. I know I've given. food warnings, food crisis warnings. twice before on the show. He gave a. really good one for Ukraine four years. ago and it turned out that that warning.

resulted in a negotiation to allow wheat. to flow out of Ukraine that Russia. Ukraine and other folks made a specific. carveout in their war to make sure that. famine didn't spread. So. >> and the fertilizer export was negotiated. at the start of the war as well which. was critical. >> Yeah. >> Uh for sure. >> I think you played a role in raising. awareness for that. So I give you credit. to Freeberg Mark. Uh thanks for coming. on the program. Sorry that uh at the end. of the program we all want to commit.

sapuku here but you know we have Dr. Doom and he uh he always loves to end. the show. There he is. with an upbeat you want to rap with an. upbeat anthropic. doomsday starring David Freriededberg. coming to the Marvel franchise in. December. Yes. So you thought Robert. Downey Jr. was playing him. It's. actually Freedberg. Here's your meme. It's not Mark Beni off's first time uh. here in the SAS apocalypse. >> There it is. First time.

>> He's like, I've been doing this before, boys. I'm buying my stock back. >> Somebody cut that rope. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> All right, listen. Uh I'll I'll just. lightning round this one. Philanthropic. has had enough of the shenanigans of the. multi-tiered, multi-layered SPVS being. sold to dentists for 10% loadin fees. I. think we all knew this day was coming. since it's becoming the wild west. They. called out specific platforms and they. said we're going to negate them. Chimoth.

Tempest in a teapot or long overdue. punishment for bad actors. >> Love Mark said it right. All these. companies should go public and get. evaluation and and focus on the higher. order bit. And all of these tickytacky. mechanisms that people can use to stay. private longer need to get a bullet put. in its head. And these SPVS are the. worst. The layered SPVS on SPVS on SPVS. >> By the way, I and I will guarantee you. this. Once SpaceX goes public, once.

Anthropic goes public, once OpenAI goes. public, you're going to see a litany of. these lawsuits back and forth between. the purveyors of these SPVS, they should. not be allowed. >> They should be all negated if possible. You can't now you can't unbreak the. eggs. So, I guess you just have to call. it what it is. I hope every company. adopts this and I hope as a result these. companies go public sooner and they. rationalize their equity structure. faster. I think it's the right thing to.

do. So, I like the fact that anthropic. is. >> just say it. Descatiad. >> Well, it's not discretziad. I just I I. just think that you are going to have a. lot. >> No. Well, you're going to have a lot of. people that are going to be very upset. once this SpaceX thing comes out because. inevitably, because it happened in Uber, somebody gets screwed in a layered SPV. somewhere that they didn't know and. they're going to be like, "What. happened?". >> Read the fine print. You're getting. double carry and you paid 10% on the. loadin fee and you paid a price 10% over. what the last round was. So, it's a. recipe for disaster. The fine print. for.

disaster. >> Recipe for disaster. Hey Mark, great. job. Thanks so much for coming back with. you guys. Yeah, come back any time. You. were great. Hey, your. >> there's a we have a fan question here. This is a fan question that came in. written by your PR department. They want. to know when you do your charity work uh. or your innovation as a founder, are you. more, >> you know, at this stage in your career, you're known for both of these things. Are you more Steve Jobs or more Lorraine. Pal right now? What your PR department.

worked very very deep question they f. the best decision I ever made the best. when I started Salesforce we put 1% of. our equity 1% of our profit and 1% of. all of our employees time into a. foundation. Today we've done more than. 10 million hours of volunteerism. We've. given away more than a billion dollars. in grants. >> and we run over 50,000 nonprofits for. free on our platform. That's just. Salesforce. Every I every company should do this.

It's amazing. Pledge11%.org. That's my advertisement for the show. >> Everybody should jump on the 111. platform. Best decision I ever made 27. years ago. Irrespective I've obviously. done a huge amount of personal. philanthropy to five hospital. >> You did one that was really I think. personal. Uh Susan Wjeki tragically died. of cancer and major. >> You're going to get me crying. Let's not. go there. This is not your time. My best friend. Bestie. My bestie. >> She was a special person, huh?

>> She's a star. >> The best. She was the best. >> Just I mean, >> I'm not kidding. You're I'm not kidding. >> Tell the audience what was so unique. about Susan. Tell tell them what you're. It's a good time to do a remembrance. >> She This was one of the great people on. the planet. Incredible woman. Mother of. five amazing children. Um, and uh, two. amazing sisters, great family. Uh, everybody knows Ann, her sister, her. sister Janet at UCSF. Um, sorry, my eyes.

are tearing up, but I'll just tell you. that, you know, she contracted a very. rare form of cancer, passed away too. young a couple years ago now. Um, and. she was on our board. She was one of the. great people of all time. I'm so. grateful that her family is focusing on. building a new foundation to go after. this rare cancer. Uh we're backing it. I. think everybody should. Um look, everyone should try to be a Susan. She. was one of the absolute greats and uh I. have an altar in my office. When you.

come to see me, you'll see with the. photos of her and me and I think of her. every single day. And uh my heart just. stays with her, her husband Dennis, all. the children, the sisters, the wholeiki. family. Amazing. And one of the great. institutions in Silicon Valley. We're. lucky to have the whole family. >> Yeah, she was fantastic. >> Well said. >> All right. Well said. Rest in peace, Susan Waki. >> Thank you. >> All right. We'll see you all next time. on the podcast. Love you boys. >> See you guys. Aloha. Thanks for Bye-bye.