Seinfeld - Full Episode (Audio)

So, David, I bought a DVD player for. research for this episode. >> No way. Did you buy the box set? >> Because there is some stuff like facts. about the pilot that are only available. in the DVD commentary and don't exist. anywhere online. So, I had to go on. eBay, buy a copy of the uh Seinfeld. DVDs, and buy a brand new DVD player. here in 2026 to view it. >> Do they even sell those on Amazon. anymore? They do. Sony makes them. Uh.

they're like I don't know 100 bucks or. [music] something. But. >> Sony, there you go. Appropriately. Distributors of Seinfeld. >> That's right. All right. Should we do. it? >> Let's do it. >> Who got [music] the truth? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Who got. the truth now? Is it [music] you? Is it you? Is it you? Sit me down. Straight. Another story on. the way. True. >> Welcome to the fall 2026 season of. Acquired, the podcast about great.

companies. Well, usually companies. anyway, >> usually the podcast about great business. assets and the stories and playbooks. behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert. >> I'm David Rosenthal. >> And we are your hosts. Today, listeners, we are taking a giant left turn. David. and I were staring at each other, pouring over our usual topic list, and. we decided that we only wanted one. criteria for selecting this one. What. episode would we have the absolute most.

fun making? And can we do something. different and fresh for acquired? And we. found something we are very pumped. about. The business of Seinfeld, the. show Seinfeld. We both had just read. this astonishing stat that Seinfeld in. the first 6 months of this year in in. 2026 has been watched by 60 million. Americans which is about 20% of the. entire US population. This show went off.

the air almost 30 years ago. >> So I reached out to Neielson to verify. this. Not only is it true, they said. that if you update it through the end of. August, that number is up from 60. million to 72 million Americans. >> Wow. That's almost the same audience. size as the Seinfeld finale when it. aired. >> This is a show that finished making new. episodes nearly three decades ago, and. yet we are all still watching it. So why.

Netflix's 2019 deal for Seinfeld, which. was reported at well more than $500. million over 5 years, was the largest. sum that a streamer has ever paid an. outside studio to license a series. that's no longer in production. $100. million plus per year, decades after. they are done making new episodes. and. everything. The way the economics break. down, the way that it is owned and. structured is essentially a complete. accident of history. Seinfeld managed to. be one of the last shows of the old.

world where everyone watched the same. thing at the same time while at the same. time also having a foot in the new world. just as the internet was taking off. And. the story is really an entrepreneurial. one of obsession of craft of a team that. created the number one show in America. by doing everything completely different. than the way it had ever been done. before and defying all conventional. wisdom. It is one of the best examples. we have ever studied on acquired where. the creators Jerry Seinfeld and Larry.

David were such big believers that their. product was excellent that they didn't. care what anyone else thought or what. the numbers looked like at first and how. a small passionate early fan base with a. slow burn went on to become their. greatest asset. Today listeners we do an. experiment here on acquired the business. of Seinfeld. >> Let's do it. So listeners, as always, you can find the visuals, charts, and. illustrations of key concepts from this. episode in our companion PDF at.

library.acquired.fm. You can join the email list at. acquired.fm/e. That's where we will send all the. behind-the-scenes photos that we found. in research, past episode corrections, and vote on future episode topics. acquired.fm/e. Come talk about this with us and the. whole community in Slack after you. listen at acquired.fm/slack. fm/slack. And before we dive in, we want to thank. our brand new presenting partner, Sierra. >> Yes, Sierra helps the great companies of.

the world build better customer. experiences and drive stronger business. outcomes with AI. That's s i e r a. sierra. So with that, this show is not. investment advice. David and I may have. investments in the companies that we. discuss. And this show is forformational. and entertainment purposes only. David, where do we begin? >> Well, naturally, even though this is an. episode about Seinfeld the show, not. Jerry Seinfeld the person, we have to. start with Jerry himself.

>> Yes. So, Jerry is born in 1954 in. Brooklyn to a Jewish family. And when. he's young, the family moves out to a. small town on Long Island named. Masipiqua. Actually spent fair amount of. time in my childhood in Masipa. is uh. definitely suburban Long Island. Not a. lot of interesting culture going on. there. >> Great. >> But but Jerry's father, Cal Seinfeld, was known in the family and amongst his.

friends for just always being a funny. guy, always telling great jokes, as. Jerry would talk about it later. He had. the funny gene. And Jerry definitely did. too. >> Yeah. Jerry insists that comedy is a. gene, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He thinks his kids have. it. He knows his dad had it. >> and that it can't be taught. Obviously, you can work really hard and hone it and. develop more material, but the like. instinct is actually genetic. >> Yep. Yep. He's always making his friends. and family laugh. And right around the.

same time when he's about 12 years old, he falls in love with an album, with a. record. Not a music album, not one of. the, you know, great bands there at the. time of the 60s, 70s, but with Bill. Cosby's standup comedy album. Why is. there air? >> This is a big thing. These comedy, >> this was a big thing. Standup albums on. vinyl. >> It's funny. Today, we all tune in to.

Netflix to watch the big standup special. that just dropped. Albums were doing. that same thing 50 plus years ago. >> Yep. Totally. So after high school, Jerry goes to Queens College in New. York, actual New York City, where he. majors in communications and theater, and he sets up for himself, he's really. into comedy. He sets up an independent. study where he studies standup comedy. like his heroes. So he goes out to the. comedy clubs in New York. He writes. papers for college analyzing various.

comedians sets and then ultimately he. himself goes on stage as part of his. college studies to get experience try. out being a stand-up comic and it's just. like what he's born to do. >> and it seems like from every interview. he's given and Jerry has given a lot of. interviews. >> We'll get into why Jerry has given a lot. of interviews later in the episode. >> Yes. He. basically said I had one goal. I mean it. since middle school, high school, become. a successful stand-up comedian. That's.

it. I didn't have like specific goals. around other things I wanted to do, some. sort of like career progression, something I wanted to rise toward, family, hobbies, like I had no goals. around anything other than become a. successful stand-up comedian. >> Yep. So, at age 22, after Jerry. graduates from Queens College, he goes. into his career. He makes his stand-up. comedy debut at the famous Catch a. Rising Star Comedy Club on the Upper.

East Side in Manhattan in 1976. And just. like he did in college in his. independent study, he like does the same. thing. He tapes himself. He analyzes his. own performances. He's performing night. after night after night. I mean, this is. a level of obsession that is necessary. for Jerry to become who he is, but it's. also not that uncommon in the standup. industry. Like, this is what you do. If. you are going to dedicate yourself to. the craft, you are every night.

performing, analyzing, just meticulously. refining every word, every syllable, every movement that comes out of your. mouth and your body. And standup is this. thing that is unique among any sort of. performance be it entertainment, music, sports, where you get a real time. scorecard from the audience. on something that is entirely within. your control and you might have just. come up with it that morning. Let's say.

you're singing and you manage to write a. song and perform it. This is sort of a. long process. Usually, it involves other. people arranging the music or other. musicians playing with you. In standup, it's you and your material delivered. through your instrument with a real. time, brutally honest feedback from the. audience, whether they're laughing or. not. It is as raw as it comes. >> Yeah, it is a solo act. You know, he. compares it to being a solo athlete, but. it's like the most extreme feedback and.

spotlight version of an athletic. performance. >> Yep. So this is what Jerry does night. after night after night. Pretty quickly. Jerry becomes a success as a stand-up. and that leads him to other. opportunities in comedy and specifically. in television. So in 1979, 3 years after. he begins his comedic career, he gets a. call from Hollywood. They want him to. come out to LA and join a sitcom show. named Benson, which I'm sure none of you.

listening remember. So, he's going to. get this recurring role on this sitcom. You know, Gray's gonna make a lot more. money than just playing in the clubs. It's going to be steady work, etc., etc. Well, he's in three episodes, and then. his character gets dropped from the. show. Doesn't uh doesn't work out. exactly as he planned, >> which is the common experience in. television. >> Yep. But this becomes very very. important to Jerry and to the eventual. show Seinfeld because despite this. disappointment with Benson during that.

first brief stint that Jerry has in LA, he performs in local comedy clubs, perform standup on the nights and. weekends around LA where one night he. gets spotted by the legendary talent. manager George Shapiro who along with. Shapiro's partner Howard West were like. the most legendary comedian talent. managers/ agents in the business. They. had gotten Andy Kaufman the recurring.

role on Taxi that's sitcom that was a. huge hit. They were placing their comics. on the Tonight Show which was filming. out there in LA at the time with Johnny. Carson getting them exposure nationally. It was all this flywheel between standup. and TV that was happening. And what. Jerry is watching here is, oh, that's. how you become successful as a comic, to. make money. And it's kind of like the. next rung in the ladder. But it's not. like what he wants is to be in sitcoms.

His calling is standup. And sitcoms are. the thing that the industry sort of has. for you. >> Yep. Well, it also becomes a. self-reinforcing flywheel for your. standup act because once you're on TV, whether it's sitcoms or like a regular. spot on the Tonight Show, you get. national exposure. Then you can tour. with your standup routine and people in. cities all across America will know you. They'll buy tickets to your shows. Like. that's the way you hit it big in. standup. So once Jerry is signed with. Shapiro and West, they get him the Big.

Break, a spot on the Tonight Show with. Johnny Carson. So Jerry talks about. this. He trains like he's training for. the Olympics to go on for I think it was. five minutes, a 5 minute set. >> And he always talks about how you're. taking most of the best material out of. your 40minut set to create that. idealized 6 minutes to just put your. absolute best foot forward. >> Yep. So he goes around to clubs and. he'll do like the five minute set as.

he's practicing for months just to get. it down. Go on stage for five minutes. He does it like 200 times in clubs. Come. off, get the next guy on. He starts. jogging to get in shape. He's playing. the Superman theme on his Walkman. So in 1981, the appearance happens and. it's a hit. Johnny loves him. Famously, while Jerry is performing, Johnny. flashes him an okay sign from the desk. so everybody knows it's going well. And. that leads to regular bookings on the.

Tonight Show. And then that leads to. Letterman wanting to book Jerry and. other variety shows and all sorts of. opportunities. And this is where Jerry. learns discipline because if you spend 5. years creating your 40-minute act and. then you get six minutes on Carson. You. do your six minutes, then you get. invited back pretty quick. The next six. minutes in your act, they're not your. best six minutes. They're your second. best, >> then your third, then your fourth. And. he said he remembers watching other. comedians just kind of churn out once. they got through their material. They.

stopped being invited back on the show. And so he picked up this discipline of. writing for hours a day, keeping. stenopads or these yellow legal pads. where he would write everything all the. time, everything he was observing in the. world so that he could avoid that. horrible fate of irrelevancy of stop. being invited back. If you always are. developing material and you kind of. always do need to be on this treadmill. of developing material, then you keep. getting the opportunity. >> And you can see how this, you know, leads into Seinfeld eventually. But.

yeah, this is the big difference between. standup comics and like musical acts. >> We're all happy to go to a concert and. hear Taylor Swift shake it off again and. again and again every tour. That's like. exactly what the fans want is to play. the hits. You don't want to go see. standup and see them tell the same joke. again. You kind of get it once and then. it's over. So eventually this leads to. Jerry getting another sitcom. opportunity. He gets considered for the. lead in a pilot show for ABC called Past.

Imperfect. >> Yep. >> And there's a new production company. It's a hot ticket. Things are looking. promising for this show. Ultimately, the. production company decides to go with. somebody else because Jerry doesn't have. enough sitcom acting experience. >> Just acting experience. period. >> Being a stand-up is not at all the same. thing as being a great actor on a. sitcom. These are two very different. skill sets, even though the same people. are doing it a lot at this point in. time. >> Yeah. >> But losing the show doesn't matter that.

much to Jerry because his standup act is. killing it thanks to all this exposure. he's getting on the late night shows. So, he's touring basically every week. And he was so popular that he was making. on average about $25,000. a week from the clubs that he was. playing across the country. So call it. like a million dollars a year that Jerry. is making just from his standup touring. here in the mid80s. >> I didn't realize that before the show.

cuz the life of a standup when you're. playing in comedy clubs you get paid in. stage time. They're like you should be. grateful to get an audience to test your. material. when you go on Carson, I don't. think you get paid, at least not. anything material. >> significant. Yeah. >> And so it's this like building a brand. around yourself using the clubs and then. using TV shows and then using the late. night shows so that you can tour. That's. the first time you're like actually. getting paid doing this form of art. And. there's not that many people at any.

given time who are touring headlined. artists, comedians, making a living. >> No, Jerry is in rare air here. And this. is going to become super important. because this is why he has leverage with. NBC, which is going to come up here in. just a sec. So Shapiro and West, his. managers, like, okay, Jerry's a big. star. He's making tons of money. We're. making tons of money as his agent, but. like he can do more. They start going to.

NBC. In fact, George Shapiro starts. writing letters, starts a letterw. writing campaign to Brandon Tardikov, who is the president of NBC. Entertainment at the time, saying, "You've got this guy, Jerry, this comic, he's regularly coming on the Tonight. Show. He's doing great. Don't you think. he needs a show of his own?" Jerry. actually has a great quote on this. He. says, "Imagine you have this kid who's. been on the Tonight Show like 30 times. and on Letterman 30 times. He's on your.

network all the time. presentable fellow. seems to do well. Nobody ever thought, "Why don't we talk to this young man? Maybe we can do some business, do a. show." So, finally, in November of 1988, Shapiro succeeds in convincing Brendan. Tardikoff and the powers that be at NBC. that, okay, maybe we should consider. this this Jerry guy. So, they schedule a. meeting to discuss it, but it's not with. NBC's comedy department. So the comedy. department at NBC means sitcoms. They.

control the sitcoms. They're not. thinking of Jerry as sitcom material. They're thinking of him as late night. material where he's obviously already. doing great. Can he do specials for us? Which is the direction this ends up. going. And you know, I think probably in. the back of their minds, they're also. thinking like, hey, can can this guy be. a be a host? You know, Johnny Carson's. getting older. It would be a few years. later that Johnny would retire. And then. there's the whole, you know, Jay Leno, David Letterman drama and the. succession. But like.

>> this is a couple years away. You know, maybe Jerry Seinfeld deserves to be in. this mix. >> You mentioned specials. There were. network comedy specials like Bob Hope. would get these specials where he would. go and do these routines. So it wasn't. like, hey, we're going to pitch you a. whole new format called Jerry Seinfeld. does stand up on TV. That was a thing. >> Yep. So on November 2nd, 1988 at 5:15. p.m. local time in Los Angeles, NBC. finally takes the meeting and Jerry. shows up. George Shapiro, managers.

there, Brendan Tardikov, president of. NBC entertainment, Warren Littlefield. who's head of prime time for NBC, and. then Rick Lewin, who heads the specials. department, the variety and specials. department that they're thinking about. Jerry for. So Jerry says of the meeting, we sat in there, we chatted about, oh, what do you think you want to do? would. you be interested in a talk show? And we. kind of settled on doing a special in. the Saturday Night Live time slot one. week when Saturday Night Live wasn't. airing. So NBC says, "Come back with a.

script for what you want to do for the. special and we'll make it." I always. like when they ask Jerry, "So what what. do you want out of this meeting?" And he. has some comment like, "Oh, I actually. hadn't really given that thought. Success as a comedian is getting this. meeting. So I'm I'm like in this room. I'm excited to be in this room with you. right now. >> I'm just happy to be here. [laughter]. >> So NBC at the time is in this pretty. interesting place. They had just. recently figured out who they were in. the late '7s and early 80s. They did not.

have a cohesive strategy. It was the. classic, we're making anything and. everything for everyone. But they turned. it around in the mid80s. So Brandon. Tardico, who you mentioned was the the. president of NBC Entertainment, had. developed this philosophy to try to. appeal to urban audiences aged 18 to 49. with smart content. And it worked. They're becoming the number one network. In 1986, GE comes in and buys the. company. And they had two big messages.

Keep in mind this is GE. So. >> GE, like Jack Welch GE, General. Electric. Yeah. >> One, you need discipline in your. business. You got to pay attention to. costs and ensure that everything that. you do align with your chosen strategy. You can't just be haphazard. And the NBC. guys kind of know this at this point. And two, things are changing. Viewers. have way more choices with cable. They're not just going to watch whatever. you put on by default. So, you need to. quickly develop great shows, and if. they're not great, get rid of them. That.

are aligned with your business strategy. and the audience you want to reach and. the advertisers you're trying to reach. and stop doing everything else. So, of. course, NBC kind of looks at, hey, this. is already kind of working for us. Let's. build a real business strategy around. it. Hey, this is a very valuable. demographic, urban audiences 18 to 49. who want to watch smart content. That's. a great business to sell to advertisers. This is obvious now, but at the time. that was pretty novel. >> Well, it was also novel, I think, for a.

broadcast network to just have a. corporate strategy, period. Like the. other networks and NBC before this point. in time, they were just like, "We're the. broadcast networks. America watches what. we put on TV." GE coming in and saying, "No, we're General Electric. I'm Jack. Welsh, Mr. Black Belt Six Sigma, greatest CEO in American history until. it all fell apart." But, you know, at. this point in time, uh, you need a. corporate strategy. >> Yes. >> It's tied to revenue and profits and. everything that GE does. So, the perfect.

thing to do is sign Jerry Seinfeld to a. development deal. >> Yes. Now, there's just one problem. though, walking out of this meeting when. Tardikoff and Littlefield and Bloodwin, they're like, "Yeah, yeah, what? Whatever you want to do, just come back. Come back with a script. We'll make it.". Jerry has never written a script in his. life for anything and especially not a. TV show. But Jerry knows one guy, one of. his old New York standup buddies who.

does have some experience with script. writing that might be useful for this. special here for NBC. So, three days. later after this meeting in LA, Jerry. flies back to New York and he goes. looking for that guy, Larry David, late. at night after the sets at Catch a. Rising Star where Larry was a regular as. a stand-up comic. >> And they got to know each other well. during this period where they're just. both constantly going up trying new. material. You don't go on till 9, 10,

11:00 p.m. So, you're like friends with. other comics just sitting in the bars. chopping it up. As Jerry was coming up. as a kid out of Queens College, Larry. David was one of the established comics. that he looked up to. But their careers. had gone in very different directions. here by the end of the 80s. Who was. Larry David here in November of 1988? The answer is he is nobody. And he's not. even like a promising young nobody who. has potential and talent like Jerry.

He's 41 years old. He's single. He's. broke. He lives in subsidized artist. housing. His stand-up routine has um I. think the term that people used to. describe him at the time was he was a. comics comic, meaning that he was. appreciated by other comics, but his uh. humor did not exactly land with. audiences. >> And he had basically been chewed up and. spat out of the industry. >> Jerry said, you know, they always just. sort of had like a comedic resonance, the two of them, and had known each. other for a long time. But Larry has had.

this kind of like George Castanza. eclectic string of failures that lead to. this moment. So the stories about Larry. before Seinfeld, you probably already. know them. You just know them as George. Castanza stories. So Larry had actually. moved to LA not for a sitcom, but. because he got a job on a show called. Fridays. >> That's right. It was an SNL knockoff. Right. >> I didn't know anything about this. ABC.

here in the late 70s, early 80s was. jealous of Saturday Night Live on NBC. So, they decide that they're gonna just. do a wholesale knockoff of Saturday. Night Live. And the only two things. they're going to change is one, they're. going to film in LA instead of New York. And two, they're going to do it on. Fridays instead of Saturday. So, they. call the show Fridays, >> and they're going to fish in the exact. same talent pool. >> Yep. Yep. They also can't get the best. talent out of New York who is interested. in this kind of stuff because they're. going to SNL. So they get Larry David to.

come out for this. They get a. eccentric young comic named Michael. Richards. Might have heard of him. Fridays last I think three seasons and. then gets cancelled. But fortunately SNL. says, you know, we could use some extra. writing talent around here. Everybody. who was a writer on Fridays will offer. you a one-year trial. So Larry, he just. needs a job. He needs a paycheck. He. comes on for one season at SNL. The. entire season, he gets only one skit.

that he writes included on the show. And. famously in Saturday Night Live history, one day Larry is so frustrated that what. he's writing is not getting on the show, he flies into a rage, yells at all the. producers and screams that he's quitting. and he walks out of the set. And then. he's freaking out. He's like, "Oh, shoot. I don't have a job. I'm not going. to be able to pay my rent. What am I. going to do?" He's, you know, so.

worried. So worried. He goes home. He. explains the situation to his nextdoor. neighbor in his apartment in partis. subsidized housing there in New York who. is named Kenny Kramer. [laughter]. And Kramer, the real life Kramer, says, "Larry, why don't you just go back in. tomorrow and pretend like nothing. happened." So Larry does, >> which he does. And you might be. thinking, I feel like I've heard this. story before. George Costanza does this. on a Seinfeld episode. This is the first.

of many, many, many examples where what. you see in Seinfeld is just things that. happened in Larry and Jerry's and. eventually other writers lives. But this. is the early stew of what would become. Seinfeld is mining their own lives for. stories. >> Yes. And and most specifically Larry's. because Jerry's life is exciting. There's, you know, Hollywood and stuff, [laughter] you know, the funny stuff is. happening to Larry. >> Yes. Also, this is going to become so. important once Jerry brings Larry into. this project with NBC.

Larry did this and things like this. during the one-year period where he was. working at NBC. NBC hated this guy to. the extent he had any reputation. It was. as a loser and somebody who like could. not function in any sort of corporate. environment and NBC wanted nothing to do. with. >> and he turned out to be a genius. and one of the best comedians and. writers that the world has ever seen. >> Yeah. Yeah. So during that ill- fated. year for Larry at SNL, he also.

intersects with a young woman on the. cast named Julia Louie Drifus, >> who also had a very short stint at SNL. and kind of turned out of it. >> Yep. I think she lasted two or three. years, but they bond over, you know, not. getting any airtime or their material on. the show. So, back to this night here in. early November 1988 when Jerry goes. looking for Larry at Catch a Rising. Star. This is what's on his mind. Hey, my buddy Larry has experience writing.

this kind of stuff. Fridays, SNL, he's. been on TV. He can help me flesh out. >> what we can do with this opportunity. >> So, he finds Larry. They go out for a. walk together. Jerry explains to Larry. what's going on. and they stop at a. Korean deli there in the Upper East. Side, Lee's Market, which was right near. the Comedy Club. And when they're in the. deli, they can't help themselves. These. are two comics together. They start. making jokes about all the products here. on the shelves in this Korean deli.

Larry makes a quip about Korean jellies. and Jerry looks at some fig bars and. says, "It looks like somebody made these. in their basement." And the words come. out of Jerry's mouth and Larry turns and. looks at him and says, "This is it. this. is what the show should be. This is the. kind of dialogue that we should do on. the show. You know, two guys just just. talking like this. They're both excited, inspired by this. They decide, "Okay, okay, great. Let's meet up again. tomorrow night after our sets." So, the. next night they meet up again. They go.

to the Westway Diner on 9th Avenue. It's. around midnight. And Jerry says to. Larry, "You know, I've been thinking. about what we came up with last night. You know, the number one question I get. asked, I'm sure you get asked, too. we. would be in standups is where do you get. your material and Larry says bingo. that's how we set up the show so we can. do that kind of dialogue on the show the. premise will be how do stand-up. comedians get their material Jerry says. yes yes great they the comedians they.

get their material they do this and he's. just gesturing with his hands to. themselves there at the table in the. coffee shop hanging out with his friends. and at that moment Seinfeld is born. which you'll notice nowhere in there did. David say the words a show about. nothing. That has nothing to do with how. the show Seinfeld is born. Later on in. the show, this is Seinfeld is so meta. They would do a season arc where Jerry. and George are creating a show called.

Jerry and pitching NBC about the show. That is a show about nothing. And then. of course that gets co-opted to be like, "Oh, Seinfeld in real life is a show. about nothing." But no, >> no, no. The premise is the show is about. how stand-up comedians get their. material. >> Yes. And so this leads Jerry to believe, okay, whatever format this takes, I'm. playing myself. And I'm not just playing. someone named Jerry. I'm playing someone. with my sensibilities, with my. observational humor about the world. I'm. not going to cast myself into a.

character that is super different. I. don't want to do that. I'm not acting. I. mean, we all know Jerry can't act. Uh, so. >> yeah, Roseanne Bar, the comic who did. Roseanne. Like, she's not playing. Roseanne Bar on Roseanne. She's playing. a sitcom character. >> It's a slightly different Jerry. Seinfeld. I mean, the version on the. show is in a little shoe box apartment. and this guy was making a million. dollars a year flying around. So, there. are differences, but still, it's it's. pretty true to personality. >> And again, you can see how this all. takes shape because nobody's thinking.

about a sitcom here. This is a oneoff. special that they're going to do, right? So that brings us to the next month, December 1988, when Jerry returns to NBC. in Los Angeles to meet again. This time. bringing both a pitch for the idea for. the script and a partner, Larry. And. NBC, as you might expect, doesn't. exactly like either of them, or. especially at least doesn't like Larry. But nonetheless, the two of them, Jerry.

and Larry, walk out of that meeting with. probably the most valuable TV deal that. has ever been made in all of television. history. But before we tell that story, now is a great time to thank our brand. new presenting partner this year, Sierra. Yes, all of the leaders of the. world's most important companies today. are wrestling with the same question. In. a world where everyone has access to the. same intelligence, what is my.

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weeks or months and span across voice, chat, email, and WhatsApp conversations. And they just introduced a new product, personas. Instead of every AI agent. sounding the same, you know, polite but. slightly robotic, you can give your. agent a distinct voice and personality, tailoring its tone, humor, even the. rhythm of how it speaks to your brand. >> And great brands should have a. recognizable character to them. And your. company's agents should match that same. character that you have worked hard to. create.

>> How an agent speaks impacts customer. trust. And Sierra told us that one of. the largest telecommunication companies. in the world just introduced a new voice. and persona for their Sierra agent. And. the rate it solved customers problems. increased by nearly 50%. 50-0. So to. find out how you can build standout. customer experiences that grow your. business with AI, visit. sierra.ai/acquired. and just tell them that Ben and David. sent you. So David, Jerry and Larry,

they've got a TV deal, right? There's a. show. >> Well, right. So Jerry and Larry have. this TV deal that would go on to become, you know, arguably the most valuable. television deal in history. But NBC. isn't sure about the idea and they. definitely aren't sure about Larry. Why. on earth do they go through with this? Well, one, as we talked about, this. whole, you know, comedians crossing over. into television is currently hot, so. they're motivated to do it. It's part of. their corporate strategy, which. >> in general, you're probably going to get.

eyeballs if you bring in a a brand name. star to star in a show. >> Young male comic, you want your young. male audience, you know, in urban areas, etc., etc. Great. But two, more. important, at the end of the day, this. is just a oneoff 90minute special that. they're talking about here as a. commitment. This is not a big deal. Like, if it doesn't work, it doesn't. work. They decide in the meeting, >> great. Okay, fine. Let's call this thing. Seinfeld's Standup Diary.

>> Oh, I never thought this. There's a name. before the name before the name. >> That was the original working name for. the show when it was still in this. conception as a one-off special that was. going to be about how Seinfeld got his. material. And then that the premise was. going to be at the end of the special, you would see him on stage doing his. stand-up material. >> that he got throughout the episode. >> Ah, okay. What's the name again? Seinfeld's standup diary. >> Okay. This is so fun to see how like all.

the rough edges get sanded off so it. eventually becomes the thing we know. >> Totally. Totally. Okay. So, the deal. What's the deal? Why is it so valuable? How much is NBC going to going to pay. these guys? Well, actually NBC isn't. going to pay them anything. directly because at the time NBC could. not legally own the show. Thanks to. rules from the FCC at the time, broadcast networks were prohibited from.

actually owning the content that they. broadcast on the networks. a set of. rules called financial interests in. syndication or Vincent. >> Yes. So time for a little history lesson. listeners. So today you know about these. like media conglomerates but before that. the TV networks were entirely separate. companies than the production studios. So NBC was its own thing totally. separate from Universal. CBS just a. broadcast network nothing to do with.

Paramount. ABC separate from Disney. So. the networks ABC, CBS, NBC, right when. TV production started in the 50s, they. need to hire the production studios to. make stuff for them to broadcast on. their networks. Some of these studios. were very large like Paramount or. Universal or Warner Brothers or Disney. Some of them were really small like MTM. Entertainment, which is named after the. Mary Show. >> Yep. Or Desiloo of Desi Ares and Lucille. Ball. >> Yes. Interestingly, the big guys, the.

big Hollywood studios getting into. making TV. We talked about on our Disney. series, it was Walt Disney that started. doing that. Originally, the Hollywood. studios kind of boycotted TV cuz they. were worried about it as a threat to the. film business. Walt was the first one. who was kind of the visionary. Said, "No, no, no. These these broadcasters, there's so much money that's going to be. made here as television sweeps the. nation, and we're going to be the best. arms dealer for them." And if we flash. all the way forward, way more money was in TV than.

>> way more way more money in TV. >> Walt was incredibly right. When you look. at where the cash gushers are in the. entertainment industry, you know, over. the last 40, 50 years, it's come from. TV, not from movies. >> It's kind of, you know, one of these uh. jokes in in Hollywood that we really. learned about studying for this episode. of, you know, all the glamour goes to. the movie stars and the movie directors. and the movie executives. The richest. people in town were always the TV guys. >> Yep. Yep. Okay. So, back to the call it.

60s. The way that the deals worked. between the networks and the studios. were called deficit financing. And this. is crazy that this is how it works, but. but it is. The networks would not fund. all the production costs of the show. So. they would green light something, find. the the production company to make it. and say, "We'll pay you 60 to 80% of. what it costs to make the show.". >> Like in this case, this special with. Seinfeld and Larry David, >> right? Cuz historically, these networks. are cash conscious and so they'd rather.

save 20 to 40% of the budget of the show. and we'll give up some future upside, but you know that's okay, >> right? Well, in return, the production. company would own the show. >> Yes. So because NBC is not totally. covering the costs, they're leaving this. deficit. They just get a license to the. show to air it on their airwaves once, twice, very limited license. But that. meant that the studio was still in the. hole for the rest of the funding to make. the show. But, you know, it is sort of. fair. the studio gets to own the rights.

to that show in the future to monetize. it when there's things like. international ways that they could. license it or merch or later home video. or the eventual huge cash cow of. syndication or reruns of the episodes on. other networks or on cable channels or. something like that in the future. But. then the network started including one. deal term that was uh very very. favorable to the networks. They. overreached and they demanded a large.

cut of the future syndication revenue. even though they were not fully funding. the cost to produce the shows. >> Ah I didn't realize that there was a. period in the 60s where the networks. could own syndication rights. >> Yes. So studios of course as you would. expect complain to the government and. they say this is ridiculous. Like. they're not funding the whole thing but. they're making it so we can't make money. now and we can't make money in the. future. So in 1970 the FCC issued the. thing that you mentioned David the.

financial interest and syndication rules. or finins and these rules prevented the. networks from owning a financial. interest which mostly meant from. participating in the future syndication. of shows that they were buying from the. studios. So this created a true. separation between networks that aired. the shows and the studios who make the. shows. You've got a buyer, you've got a. seller. It's very clean. >> Yep. Yeah. >> But then by the late 1980s, flash. forward, I don't know, 20 years or so,

the networks are now the ones. complaining, cable shows up and a lot of. the consumer attention is leaving the. network and going to cable. And the. networks argued, well, we need more. latitude and operating our businesses to. effectively compete and make profits. You might remember this from our uh our. Disney episode where we talked all about. what opened the door for Disney to. eventually buy ABC. So by 1993 the. networks won. Fininsson is repealed. The. net of this is networks actually can.

produce their own shows from 1993. 45 onward. >> Yep. Which means that they'll own those. shows in perpetuity. >> Yes. But here where we are in the. Seinfeld story, 1989, it is like the. tail end of the Fininsson era. And the. way it works is NBC is not allowed to. own the actual intellectual property of. the show. They must say, "Hey, go find a. production company, make the show, and. then we will pay you 80ish% of what it.

costs to make it in order for the right. to air it on our airwaves.". >> Yep. And that dynamic back in that era. had set up this incredible. entrepreneurial ecosystem where you had. these independent production companies. and the creators they work with who got. actual ownership of the shows and the. syndication rights. It's almost like. Silicon Valley startups, this like. capitalistic entrepreneurial incentive. to go make these amazing things. And. Seinfeld is one of the last ones out of. this system. And it had power law.

dynamics where just like the venture. capital industry, most shows fail, but. for the shows that succeed, they succeed. massively. And the cap tables are like a bunch of. individuals or or a small production. company. It's not like all the profits. just go into a big network the way that. they do today. So you actually could. have literally exactly like Silicon. Valley power law outcomes to individuals. on a cap table. >> Yeah. So, back to Seinfeld and Jerry and.

Larry and this meeting with NBC. When. NBC says, "We will promise you we are. going to make what you are pitching us.". That is an extremely valuable commodity. that they are giving Jerry and Larry. because they're saying, "Yeah, yeah, you. know, go get a production company and. you work out your own deal with them, but we'll make it." Usually, it's. reversed. the production companies are. making pilots and concepts for specials. and scripts that they're pitching the. networks and desperately trying to get.

the green light to air them. NBC is now. saying to the individual creators to. Jerry and Larry, you go find your own. production company, cut your own deal. with them, we guarantee we'll make it. This is like it's free money to use a. Silicon Valley analogy. It's like if. you're investing in a series A and. somebody has already guaranteed that. they're going to mark it up 10x in a. series C afterwards, >> right? You write this check and uh then. there's another check waiting right here. for you. >> Yep. So Jerry and Larry and the agents.

Shapiro and West, they're just given the. golden goose here. So, this is where. that very nice production company back. when Jerry was being considered to be. cast for that ABC pilot comes back into. the picture. Castle Rock. And uh Jerry. says to George Shapiro, "All right, great. Well, why don't we just use those. guys from last year? They seem nice. enough." And boom, Castle Rock becomes. the production company. Now, Castle.

Rock, you might know of it, or you might. just know of it from watching Seinfeld. episodes and seeing their title card at. the end of the screen. Ben, what's the. awesome history of Castle Rock? >> All right, so we're going to go back. slightly pre-Castle Rock. In 1982, Colia Pictures, the. >> major Hollywood film studio, Yep. gets. bought for $750 million. by longtime listeners will know this.

Coca-Cola. >> The Coca-Cola company acquired episode. crossover. >> Coke is trying to get into the movie. business. They just had a new CEO, Roberto Goetta take the helm and is is. trying to diversify. And I think part of. the rationale here is like, oh, hey, Coke products in movie theaters, films, and then product placements in movies. What if we just own a studio? There can. be some efficiencies here, some.

diversification, as you say, but you. know, sure, whatever. Maybe. [laughter]. >> Okay, so that's Colombia and Coca-Cola. A few years after Ko buys Colombia, Castle Rock Entertainment is formed in. 1987 by five partners including Rob. Reiner, >> the successful young actor and director. He'd been on All in the Family and. directed Spinal Tap, I think, in The. Princess Bride. >> Yes. >> Great movies. >> And the idea is to be a studio by. artists for artists. Really talent. friendly, flexible, and easy to work.

with. >> Yep. and uh funded by the big bucks from. the Coca-Cola company. >> This is the craziest thing. So, Castle. Rock is just this little thing with five. partners that needs to get off the. ground. >> Independent production company in the. Silicon Valley style we were just. talking about, >> right? It could end up being very, very. valuable because they're going to own. the forever rights to any downstream. revenue after the first run on. television of any shows that they make. and any of the movies they make. But for.

now, it's just five guys. They find. their way through Columbia Pictures to. Coca-Cola. And CocaCola invests $30. million at founding of Castle Rock. So, the studio that funded and created. Seinfeld was itself Coca-Cola money. >> Amazing. Why do you think Jerry drinks. Diet Coke in Seinfeld? [laughter]. [gasps]. >> So, at formation, Castle Rock is owned. 60% by its founders, 40% by Coca-Cola. And part of this deal is that Colombia. would get to be the distributor of any.

films and TV shows that Castle Rock. made. >> Yep. >> Which doesn't matter that much right. now, but later on you need a distributor. in order to sell the syndication for. reruns anywhere where you're going to. put reruns. So, it's kind of a nice. thing to put in the contract right now. Hey, we get to be the distributor down. the line of anything you make. In. November 1989, right around the same. time that Seinfeld is kind of getting. started here, Sony buys Colombia from.

KO, which means the distribution rights. that Colombia had goes to Sony. >> To Sony. Yep. >> In addition to a minority stake in. Castle Rock itself. Sony did get the. minority stake of Castle Rock, but they. don't control it. So that distribution. right goes with. >> Columbia to Sony, >> but the actual IP ownership stays with. the independent Castle Rock. >> And this is all going to become very. very important to the financial.

incentives behind Seinfeld as we go. here. >> Yes. So taking a step back here, you're. probably like, why do I need to know all. of that? And what's the bigger picture. here? Just think about the incentives. If you're Castle Rock and you own the. rights, all of your returns are super. backloaded. If you make a show, like, great, I'm gonna make a show for. $500,000 an episode. You're only getting. paid $400,000 an episode by a network to.

buy that show from you, >> right? You have the rights to lose money. on every episode that you, >> right? Every episode you make, you're. like, "Oh boy, I hope this does well.". But you just keep losing more and more. and more money every single episode. You. don't make money until five plus years. down the line. Again, much like the. venture business when that show goes. into syndication or the foreign rights. gets sold or merch becomes big or home. video becomes big. And same for those. distributors there. The distributor. doesn't do anything when a Castle Rock. is selling a show to an NBC. So that.

whole apparatus of Castle Rock and Sony. is just sitting there on their hands. saying, "So, uh, when do we get to stop. losing money?" Meanwhile, the networks. are sort of in this rental business. where they are renting content to show. it. I think the contracts usually say we. get to show it once and show ads against. it on a big night of television and. prime time. We also get to show it one. more time, maybe next summer or. something when there's nothing on the. schedule, but after that, all the rights. revert to the IP owner, to the studio.

And so the the whole business of network. is just we're going to rent content that. we are legally not allowed to own and. we're going to bet that we can sell more. ads than it costs us to rent. So they. run a like very short-term business. while the studios and distributors run a. very long-term business. It's just like. Silicon Valley. They're betting on the. equity value in the long run. >> Yes. So back to Seinfeld's stand-up. diary here. Larry and Jerry having the. guarantee that NBC is going to make this. thing is so valuable to any production.

company they work with because the idea. is this is going to be a one-time. special and it's guaranteed to be made. by the networks. So any production. company that comes and works with them. to make this thing, it's going to air. right away on NBC. Maybe it'll do a. summer rerun on NBC and then it's. theirs. they get it to go sell it to HBO. or Showtime or whoever. Sell it. internationally, run the whole business. model on the back end right away, guaranteed. No need to pitch the.

networks. No need to put capital into. developing pilots that might not get. picked up, etc., etc. Awesome. >> Yep. >> But you don't know how big it's going to. be. Like, is this thing going to be. worth anything to sell to other networks. and syndication? Probably not. It's a. onetime special, >> right? Nobody's thinking about this as a. sitcom. It's a It's a special. But what. this allows is Jerry and Larry via. Shapiro and Wes, the the managers, the. agents to negotiate. huge percentage of the backend, essentially the equity in this piece of.

content with the production company. >> cuz nobody thinks it's going to be worth. that much. And there's no risk. >> There's no risk. Jerry and Larry have. all the leverage. They could take this. to literally any production company in. Hollywood, >> right? And so choosing Castle Rock, they. can essentially write the deal terms. So. it's never come out exactly what the. deal terms are. You know, sort of the. cap table essentially of Seinfeld the. show because the only people who really.

know are Jerry and Larry and Castle Rock. and and then Shapiro and West. But um. it's reported that Jerry and Larry each. own 15% of the show, which is huge. And. spoiler alert, Seinfeld is going to make. billions and billions and billions of. dollars and Jerry and Larry are going to. get 15% each of that. >> And they have this very clever way of. dealing with it in interviews cuz. someone will say something like, "You've. made x00 million and they never quite.

deny it." They say, "That's. preposterous. That's an insane number, right? >> That that's a ridiculous number." And. it's true. It is a ridiculous number, the hundreds of millions of dollars that. end up coming out of this. But it's it's. not they're not saying it's wrong. Or. even when they do say it's wrong, they're not saying by how much. So. someone throws out it seems like you. might have made over $600 million and. they go, "Oh, that's not the right. number.". >> Right. Right. Right. >> But you didn't say that it wasn't in the. ballpark. So it's just one of these. funny uh it's admirable the way that.

they handle it because it's so true to. form. >> Yes. Yes. But this is why this crazy. unlikely standup special ends up. becoming the most valuable deal probably. in the history of television for these. guys. So, as best we can kind of figure. out by what's been publicly reported, ballpark it at 65ish%. left for Castle Rock. The interesting. thing to know is usually the way a. distribution deal works cuz remember. Sony owns the distribution, right? Eventually, that usually looks like 15%.

off the top. So, that's like everyone. gets diluted down 15%. Because whoever. Sony manages to sell it to, they get the. first percent off the top. And we've. seen different numbers. We've seen 15. We've seen 30. There's lots of reason to. believe it's 15. >> So simplifying this a little bit, you. can essentially think of the water flow. of Seinfeld's billions of dollars of. syndication profits as 15% to Sony, 15%ish, a little less because of the.

Sony dilution. each to Jerry and Larry, 5%ish to West Shapiro, and then 50%ish. to Castle Rockin. It's successors, shall. we say, as we go along here. So, once. all these various parties are in place, they need to go, you know, write the. script for this thing. So Larry and. Jerry, they go off, they start working. on the script, but they have a tough. time coming up with 90 minutes worth of. standup material to, you know, do the.

expose, if you will, on how it gets into. comedian sets for the special. 90. minutes of standup material is a lot of. standup material. >> It's an eternity. It's really hard to be. funny for 90 minutes. >> So, as they're working on, they're. banging their heads against the wall. They also realize that there does need. to be some kind of semblance of a story. I put story in quotes or you know some. situations to get the characters into. the scenes where the conversations would. happen that would lead to the standup.

material. So Larry floats an idea. What. if we just do this as a standard 30. minute sitcom pilot which a standard. 30-minute sitcom is only 22 minutes of. actual content. you know, 22 minutes. Great. Like, that is a manageable amount. of standup material that we can come up. with for this thing. And doing it as a. sitcom here, that'll give us some story. reasons, enough situation, situation, comedy, sitcom to get the characters. into the scenes so we can say the. dialogue, etc., etc. And the way that.

we'll make it all fit is Jerry, what you. want to do anyway, like you said, Ben, you just play yourself in the sitcom to. end in the standoff. So, the script for. this first pilot that they come up with, the first initial script that they're. going to pitch back to NBC is that Jerry. is supposed to go on the Tonight Show, you know, NBC tie-in tonight show, but. he doesn't have any new material, so he. needs to pull his act together and he's. hanging out with his friends, particularly his Larryike friend George,

to get the material. And then at the end. of the episode, Jerry's going to perform. it on the Tonight Show. They go back to. NBC. They pitch the new version and they. have a new title for what this is to. reflect the shift from a 90-minute. special into a pilot essentially for a. sitcom. They're going to change it from. Seinfeld Stand-up Diary to The Seinfeld. Chronicles. It's going to be an ongoing chronicle of. Jerry's stand-up material, >> which if anyone like me now has the DVD.

box set, you can watch the original. version of the pilot that airs, not the. edited version later that is actually. called on screen the Seinfeld. Chronicles. >> Indeed. Indeed. Once again, NBC. somewhat surprisingly just says, "Okay, [laughter]. Jerry Jerry has a great quote about. this. He says, "Every step of the way, we were waiting for somebody to come in. and say, you can't do this on network. TV, >> but nobody did. >> cuz it's just different than everything. else that's on network. It's like a.

sitcom that's not a sitcom really. We. just needed to kind of like borrow from. the sitcom format to accomplish our goal. of how a comedian gets its material.". And it's like not even happening in the. comedy department. It's happening. through these late night people. >> Through the late night department, the. specialist department. This is part of. why they say yes to this change in plans. because it actually makes their life. easier. Previously, they were going to. have to fit a 90-minute special into the. calendar. Wait, you're telling me now I. only need to give you guys 30 minutes? Sure, whatever you want to do. No.

problem. >> So, they sort of sail through NBC here. >> In a wholly unprecedented move, the net. of this is that NBC's. late night and specials departments. a sitcom pilot. This has never happened. before. The show just stays in in in. late night. >> And just so listeners understand what. we're talking about, the comedy. department that has at this point what. the Cosby show it has cheers. It has. like a bunch of hits. They've got a.

whole process for reviewing scripts and. giving notes and working with the. creators. And the late night. department's just like, uh, it's really. easy to say yes because it's even easier. yes than the thing we already said yes. to. And they just get to skip all the. comedy department checklists and. committees. So NBC says, "Okay." And. Castle Rock, now the production company, and Jerry and Larry like, "Well, all. right, let's uh let's cast this thing.

Let's go make a pilot." So Rob Reiner at. Castle Rock suggests that they should. look at a mostly Broadway actor at the. time named Jason Alexander for the part. of George. He felt and and Jerry and. Larry certainly agreed that they needed. a really polished like like really I. mean Jason Alexander is an an incredible. actor. They needed a really really great. actor to play opposite Jerry cuz Jerry. is not a great actor. >> He was about to win a Tony a month. later.

>> Yes. When Jason came in to read, they. were like, "This guy's unbelievable. He's perfect for it." Later on, Jason. would sort of figure out, "Oh, this. character is kind of Larry David." He's. not exactly Larry David, but he's. loosely based on him. He actually. thought it was a Woody Allen character. at first. So, he came in and sort of did. a Woody Allen impression for George. Next, they need to cast Kramer because. Larry has decided to write his eccentric. neighbor into the script here for the.

pilot, but he's not calling him Kramer. just yet. >> Kesler, is that right? >> Kesler. Yes. >> He's like, "Oh, I don't want to make it. too on the nose." And also, if we call. him Kramer, then like we're going to. have to pay this guy or do some kind of. rights situation. So, they they call him. Kesler. The funny thing is eventually. they realize, and this is so Larry David. and Jerry Seinfeld, they are looking at. the page, they're saying the name out. loud, and they just realize, no, of all the names we can think of,

Kramer is actually the funniest name. >> It just sounds funny. >> Something about it that sounds funny, and funny is the most important thing. Everything else is secondary to that. We. have to go with funny. And so they name. him Kramer. And then of course it's the. best thing that ever happens to the. actual Kramer cuz he sets up, you know, Kramer's New York tours in New York. City, right? >> So they need to cast the character and. Larry says, "I know the perfect guy from. my days back at Fridays, Michael.

Richards." And that's how Michael. Richards joins the show. >> George Shapiro has this great quote. Michael Richards was standing on his. head while he was doing his lines, a. yoga pose, and Brandon Tardikoff goes, "Well, if you want funny, this is at the. audition. This is how he's preparing to. go in and audition for this role.". >> Yeah. I mean, again, this is so. offthe-wall compared to anything that. would go through the normal process at. NBC. So then they need to cast the. fourth character, a woman, the character.

of Claire, the guy's regular waitress at. the diner, played by Lee Garlington. There's no Elaine in the pilot. So they. cast Claire, they shoot the pilot, and. then they bring the NBC executives in to. screen it, and they're not sure. Interestingly, the comment that really. sticks out from this session is that. some of the executives thought it was.

too New York and too Jewish. >> Yeah. Which is quite ironic because. basically the entire origins of American. comedy are New York and Jewish, >> but they didn't wear it quite on their. sleeve the way that Jerry did. I mean, this is they named the show Seinfeld, and it has this like. >> I don't know how to put it other than. this very Jewish type of humor. The the. sensibility, the timing, the. observational humor, the pnicity, the. crankiness, the like uh the detail.

oriented, the obsession. It's a really. good point. The Jewish tradition of. comedy really was the main lineage of. comedy in America. I mean, the Marx. Brothers, George Burns, like basically. everybody that came out of vaudeville. was was Jewish. But they changed their. names. They didn't wear it on their. sleeves. It wasn't as obvious. I think. the thing the NBC executives didn't. realize is that here by the late8s, it. kind of didn't matter anymore. Everybody. knew Woody Allen was Jewish. He was the. biggest name in comedy. >> The other point in this is nobody knows. anything. >> Yeah.

>> It's Seinfeld, right? It would go on to. become Seinfeld. And they're like, "Eh, I don't know.". >> Y. >> So they test it. They're like, "We. should proceed with our standard testing. and feedback. >> We'll recruit a test audience to watch. this thing.". >> Right. the practice at the time, and I. didn't know this is super interesting, they would cold call, they had a. research department would cold call a. bunch of houses to recruit 400. households to watch a unused channel on. their cable system at a certain time.

And if you knew to tune in and you had. the right hardware, you would tune in. and then you would see the pilot pop on. and then I think there's like nothing. else afterwards. You're like just. watching this one channel at this one. time. The researchers then convene these. people or call them and ask them a. standard set of questions. It tested. horribly, >> horrible. >> Like the network executives were just a. foreshadow of how people in the world. saw it. Some of the most infamous. comments that came out of this is uh.

one, you can't get too excited about. going to the laundromat, >> which is where most of the pilot takes. place with Jerry and George at a. laundromat. And Jerry and George have. this whole discussion about what it. means that this girl who's coming into. town wants to see Jerry when she's there. and is she going to stay with him and. like how much should they read into it. and like when he greets her at the. airport are they supposed to hug? Is she. going to hug him? Like just. overanalyzing the crap out of this. situation, but they're having the. conversation while in a laundromat which. is where a lot of the the feedback sort.

of focused. The other quotes include, "Jerry's loser friend George isn't a. forceful character. Jerry needs a stronger supporting cast. and why are they interrupting the. standup for these stupid stories?". >> Yeah. >> If the viewers liked anything about it, it was actually just Jerry's standup. But even that didn't test that strong. The recommendation from the research. department to NBC was if you're going to. air this and then if you're going to. greenlight this and you're going to do.

something with Jerry, it should be. standup and it should be better than. this. >> Yeah. Uh my favorite uh quote from the. pilot research report was no segment of. the audience was eager to watch the show. again and the overall pilot performance. was rated as weak. And Jerry and Larry. did not see this memo for several years, but once it was brought to their. attention, they hung it on the wall of. the bathroom on set. >> Yes, that's right in the bathroom in. their production office [laughter] on. the set. >> So, they do air it. >> They do air it in a um time and day slot.

where the network notoriously burns off. not very promising pilots. They air it. on July 5th, 1989. Not a lot of people tuning into. television on uh July 5th in America. >> And with that, 99 times out of a hundred. in history, that would have been the end. of the Seinfeld Chronicles would have.

gotten put out to pasture with many, many, many other failed pilots. NBC does. not pick up the show for a season run. that fall in 1989. Instead, NBC picks up. two other sitcoms over Seinfeld and all. the other pilots that they ran. The. NutHouse and Sister Kate. >> You probably don't remember them. >> Yes, exactly. Just to prove your point, Ben, that nobody knows anything. That. would have been the end except that back. in the late night and specials.

department at NBC, they keep thinking. about this Seinfeld thing. I mean, they. love Jerry. They want to do something. with Jerry and they're like, "Yeah, I. mean, everybody was worried. It was too. Jewish. It was too New York, but. but I'll be damned if it's not funny.". Like, it was just funny. And even though. most people didn't like it, there was a. small group of people who completely got. it. It's like any successful startup. You're not trying to be a seven for. everyone. You're trying to be a 9.9 for.

a very small group of people that you. can then figure out how to get those. super fans to tell their friends. There. were people at NBC that were like, "This. is the future. This is what we need to. do. We need to be in business with Jerry. Seinfeld and this brand of comedy." And. it was Warren Littlefield in prime time. and Rick Lewin in Specials. And so the. two of them come together and they hatch. a lastditch plan to give their little. baby another chance. They decide, well,

since we've been doing this out of. specials, what if we just cancel one of. the other oneoff specials that we were. going to do and use that budget to place. an order, a season quote unquote order. for this show that we love. So, they. cancel one two-hour Bob Hope special. that they were planning to do on NBC. that fall. And instead, they use that. budget. They call up Jerry and Larry and. say, "Great news. We are ordering a.

season of The Seinfeld Chronicles.". Jerry says, "Uh uh, great. What What's. the order?". Four episodes, [laughter]. making it, I believe, the smallest. first season order in television. history. >> And didn't you talk to Warren. Littlefield about this? >> Yes. Yes. So, the quote from Warren. about how this conversation went down, he says, "I called Jerry to tell him the. good news." There was a long silence. over the line. Jerry finally asked me,

"Has any show in the history of. television ever succeeded with just four. episodes?" And Warren says, "Uh, I. didn't know." And that's exactly what I. told him. [laughter]. >> Probably not. If anybody knows, it's. probably the head of prime [snorts] time. at NBC. >> Yep. Jerry's telling Larry in the. background as they're having this. conversation, and Larry famously reacts. to this with, "Ah, it's fine. I think. four episodes is all I got in me. anyway." It's the ultimate Larry David.

line. >> Larry David would go on to be the head. writer of 135 Seinfeld episodes. >> Yep. Yep. So, they've got the order. And. Jerry has later said in other interviews. that he and Castle Rock were looking. around for other buyers because they. assumed that NBC was out, which is a. fair assumption. Fox actually made an. offer and guaranteed 24 episodes, but. Jerry wanted that NBC impromater of a.

real. >> Well, Fox was also a startup network at. this point in time. It was not. >> Fox that you know it today as a one of. the major broadcast networks in the US. >> Jerry has phrased it as it wasn't the. major leagues. and I wanted to be in the. majors and so they went with NBC's. episode instead. >> Yep. So they get the order and uh NBC's. like, "We trust you, but there's some. problems with this show." In particular, the worst scoring demographic in the. pilot was women. Yep. Women don't relate.

to this show at all. And and usually. what we do here at the network is we. just add a character from that. demographic group to the episode. So I. know you guys have got Claire the. Waitress. She needs to be hanging out a. member of the group. >> Yep. Which leads to the network's. I I think one I think one [laughter]. good creative note in the history of. Seinfeld which makes the whole show. work. You need a girl in this thing. But.

before we tell the story of Elaine, now. is a great time to talk about our good. friends at Anthropic. >> Yes, the makers of Claude. And uh David, I want to start with that research memo. about the pilot. >> Yes. Uh viewers didn't really like the. cast of supporting characters. They. thought the scenes of Jerry and his. friends just hanging around were boring. Not good. >> Yeah. But in 1989, they weren't wrong. I. mean, there wasn't really anything to. come back for yet. the show that people.

couldn't stop watching that it would. eventually become was really built out. over those nine seasons of shared. history. So all the things, you know, Vanderlay Industries, Festivist, every. single time that Newman walks in and. goes, "Hello, Jerry, >> all of it gets so much funnier the more. you see.". >> Yep. And Enropic just did the same thing. with Claude. For most people, every. conversation with an LLM has been like. the Seinfeld pilot. You explain what. you're working on, how you like things.

done, and the next time you sit down, it. has no idea who you are again. Now, their new memory functionality carries. across chat and co-work. So, all of that. accumulates no matter where you're. working in Claude. And for teams in. Slack, Claude tag does this for your. whole team. One Claude in the channel. that's read every thread, knows the. standing instructions, and can notice. things. nobody asked it about. >> So, the value basically just keeps. building the more you use it. A. conversation with Claude isn't. disposable anymore. It carries into the.

next one. And so, if you want to learn. more about how Claude can help transform. your chats into tangible, memorable. work, check out claude.ai/acquired. And if you are inquiring about. enterprise usage, just tell them that. Ben and David sent you. >> So, adding Elaine. >> Yes. Arguably makes the show. I mean, when you watch the pilot, you're like, "Oh, yeah. There is a giant ingredient. missing." And it's not just because the. couch is weird and Jerry's apartment's. weird and like there's an Ela shaped.

hole in the show. >> Totally. Elaine makes the show. And it's. not just NBC's note of you need a girl. It's so much more than that. I mean, yes, adding a female character gives. Seinfeld a lot more appeal to more. demographics than the pilot did, but the. character of Elaine. is also this incredible act of. subversion to the network because by you. need a girl in it, NBC meant give Jerry.

a love interest. And that is not what. Larry and Jerry are doing with Elaine. And I think it's really what establishes. what Seinfeld the show is. >> Yes. Cuz if you look at every other. sitcom, I I bet NBC felt like they. didn't even need to give the full note. Give Jerry a female friend who will have. an on-again offagain. Is there a flame here? And then. eventually end up together and give the. viewers what they want.

>> It's Sam and Diane and Cheers. It's Ross. and Rachel. Blah blah blah. Eventually, Jim and Pam, like this is the formula, and the way that Jerry and Larry chose. to interpret the note is literally, "But. we're not going to do any of that other. stuff.". >> Yeah. We're just going to need a girl. So, uh, George Shapiro, the talent. manager, has a great quote about this, about what you need a girl means. He. says, "The network wanted Jerry and. Julia to be married or dating. That was. normal network thinking. Fortunately, we. had two creators who didn't give a crap.

Jerry and Larry felt strongly that Jerry. and Julia shouldn't have a relationship. and they were ready to walk away from. the show because of it. >> And the way that they pulled this off is. Elaine is a former love interest. Like. they've already had a relationship and. it didn't work and they broke up. And so. viewers, you don't even need to take. your minds there cuz we already told you. it's not going to work. There is one. episode where they explore. >> deal. Yes. [laughter]. >> Incredible episode. But then after that, the the I think that's the end of a.

season. and they come back the next. season, the whole thing is forgotten. They don't take it anywhere. These. characters are not a love interest, period. >> That episode, The Deal, where they the. two of them reexplore the romantic. relationship is even more subversive to. the network because they do it, Larry. Larry and Jerry do that episode and then. they just never mention it again. There's no resolution. There's no They. continued, they didn't continue. There's. no development. There's no relationship. It's just that didn't happen. This show. would go on to be number one by throwing.

out the playbook entirely and going. straight off of the thing that Jerry and. Larry wanted to make with no like. reverence for the roles that you were. supposed to do to get to number one. >> Exactly. So this is why you know when I. said that the Elaine character makes. Seinfeld what it is. What is Seinfeld? It is a merging of standup and the. sitcom just like the whole development. of the show. This is what it's leading. to. Like a sitcom, Seinfeld, the show.

has continuity of characters, places, relationships across episodes, across. seasons, across years of the show. You. get to know these characters. You know, the apartment, you know, the coffee. shop. You know, George just can't help. himself. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Every time you can count on them to do. the wrong thing, to see the temptation. and to give into the temptation. And by. creating these consistent characters, it. helps have a framework for those jokes. >> What does standup comedy not have?

Continuity. Consistency. That doesn't. exist in the standup world. Okay. Now, flip it on the other side. Like standup, Seinfeld doesn't have any development of. these characters and places and. relationships. Jerry's always Jerry. George is always George. Elaine is. always Elaine. You could tune in in any. episode. There's no development of the. relationship. The characters. They never. learn anything. The places don't change. The apartment is the same. The coffee. shop is the same. >> It's a situational comedy,

>> but the situation is static. >> Or I would say the characters are. static. The characters are vessels for. humorous situations, whereas they call. them sitcoms before that, but really. what they were were these. >> they were dramas with jokes. >> Yes. And Seinfeld drops that and just. creates situations that are inherently. funny with characters that are static. versus needing to insert isolated jokes. to sort of like lighten the mood of a.

dramatic situation that has a beginning, middle, and end. And those dramatic. situations, as we were pointing out with. the, you know, the network note, sort of. the unsaid subtext of you need a love. interest, are almost always either. romantic relationships or family. relationships and they develop over the. course of the show and the characters. grow and learn and change and come. together. Seinfeld is so radical by. saying absolutely not. We are not doing.

any of that. So, one of the writers that. I talked with for research is Jeff. Schaefer, and he wrote for the show in. the the later years. His comment to me. was, "The plot itself has to be funny. when you retell it." Like, that's how. they know they're on to something is if. literally describing the situation is. the humorous part. And the best. illustration of this is how Seinfeld. episodes end. They don't resolve the. plot in a satisfying way. It's It's just. like standup when the joke end. >> There's no consequences. It's just.

funny, >> right? So, the characters find. themselves in a tough situation, but. there's sort of no funny arc remaining. after that. That's okay. The show just. ends. Freeze frame. You don't get to know how they get out. of the jam. There's no continuity into. the next episode. They start fresh next. episode. It's literally a stand-up act, but the people are in the situations. instead of the jokes being purely. verbal. >> Yep. You led me right into. the perfect Jerry quote about this. He. says, "I personally believe that what.

Larry and I brought to the sitcom. format, a 22-minute format, was a. stand-up comedian structural. sensibility. We didn't really have time. to tell what the characters were all. about because we had jokes to do. We. weren't really storytellers. We became. that, but only through that lens, the. jokes.". >> It's so true. >> Yeah. And the thing that makes it so. universally appealing is that the. characters they developed, we see. ourselves in these characters. They they.

represent a side of ourselves. We've all. wanted to grab the aclair from the top. of the trash can, but we have restraint. We're real people who move around the. world. We're complex. We have. multi-dimensions. But Seinfeld represents wish. fulfillment. George has no restraint. George is an avatar of our worst. qualities. You know, Elaine has a lot of. them. Kramer has our most insane. qualities and the recognition of this. very basic human element in these. characters is surprisingly timeless and.

durable. So all of this comes together. and crystallizes during this kind of. first season timeline in Larry's famous. rule for the show. There's only one rule. >> which I've heard this is not a stated. rule. This was more sort of like. something that bubbled up later that. they realized they all had a shared. understanding around. But Jerry, Larry, the writers, everyone had this ethos for. sure. >> Yep. No hugging, no learning, [laughter].

which again is the the exact opposite of. every other sitcom that had ever been. made to this point, >> right? The characters never hug and make. up. There's no uh in Full House, you. know how the end of every episode would. be Danny sitting down on the bed. explaining some law of life to his. daughters and you know you did a bad. thing but you learned your lesson. Seinfeld is you did a bad thing, you got. caught, you lied about it, you dug yourself into. a deeper hole, you learned nothing. >> We end the episode. You do it again the.

next time. >> Y. >> right. No one ever learns from their. mistakes. And it provides this like. perfect substrate for the jokes to. happen, these insane situations that. they get themselves into. And I think I. was trying to reflect back on all this. >> I think Jerry and Larry viewed it as. respect for the audience that we don't. need to spoon feed you what emotions you. should be having and you don't need to. hug and make up and like put a bow on. everything. You get it. You're in on the.

joke with us. The joke's over. you're a. smart person who can figure it out. And. at first that leads to a very niche. audience. That is not a recipe to have a. breakthrough season one or two or three. But that will earn the respect of some. small group of people who are obsessed. with it. >> You're so right. I think that's exactly. how they thought about it. And it's so. ahead of its time and it's why Seinfeld. is still so watchable and relevant today. because.

TV sitcoms all that other you know the. hugging the learning the emotional arcs. it was all fake. It was all just fake. and eventually thanks to cable and then. the internet audiences on mass. eventually just kind of came to see that. for what it is of it's fake and Seinfeld. was being like great we're not going to. give you the fake stuff. We're gonna. give you something that you actually see. in your life, too. That that feels more. like real life. >> Yeah. Your friends and your family, they. don't grow. They don't change. [laughter].

>> Right. Right. The funny thing about all. this is they got the green light for. these four episodes, but Jerry and Larry. did not think that NBC would actually. put them on the air. >> Yes. The the story I heard on this was. they literally thought about these four. episodes as we are making this for the. dinner party that we're going to host. with our friends and then after the. dinner party we're all going to gather. around a TV and we'll pop in the tape of. these episodes and we can say look at. what we made. It never made it on the. air but look at how good it is. And the.

fact that that's what they made and then. that's what succeeded gave them this. like terrifying amount of autonomy from. the network because they did it 100%. their way, 100% the thing that they. wanted to make and that's what people. actually wanted which if you're trying. to exercise any measure of control as. the network that train has left the. station. >> Yeah. Yes. [laughter]. The inmates were running the asylum from. the get-go. >> Yes. >> Especially with, you know, Larry running. the show. [sighs and gasps] Ah, so NBC.

amazingly does put it on the air and uh. the scheduling team comes to Castle Rock. and to Larry and Jerry and says, "If. you're willing to wait and have this run. over the summer, you know, when summer. is usually the traditional downtime for. for networks where they don't have first. run shows going, >> mostly reruns.". >> Yep. We could run it after Cheers reruns. in the summer. Now, you might say, why. why is NBC a broadcaster doing Cheers.

reruns? The networks would get the right. to rerun each episode once over the. summer. >> And they would get the right to box out. syndication for a certain period of. time. >> Yep. So, Castle Rock and Jerry and Larry. are like, "No brainer. We're going to. roll this thing after Cheers." Now, in. the meantime, throughout the spring of. 1990, ABC had launched another show. called The Marshall Chronicles. nothing. like Seinfeld, but everybody started. worrying, "Oh no, if we now launch the.

Seinfeld Chronicles over the summer, we're going to look like a me too about. the Marshall Chronicles over on ABC.". And so this is how the Seinfeld. Chronicles gets shortened to just. Seinfeld. >> Drop the It's cleaner. >> It's [laughter] cleaner. Yes. Yes. So. Seinfeld goes on the air Thursday, May. 31st, 1990. premiering after the summer. rerun of Cheers. And critically, that. very same month, Brendan Tardikov leaves.

NBC. He was the head of the. entertainment portion of the network. So, he didn't run like sports or news or. anything like that, but everything. within entertainment, dramas, comedy sitcom, late night specials, all. reported up to Tardikoff. His successor. is chosen. Warren Littlefield, one of. the two primary champions of Seinfeld, just became president of entertainment.

at NBC. Which means that when it comes. to the next critical decision point in. the Young Seinfeld Show's life cycle. here of whether it's going to get an. actual season in the fall, going to get. picked up for real finally. It's now Warren Littlefield's decision. to make. So the new episodes air. throughout June and July. And. Littlefield, of course, he loves the. show. He wants to support it. and Rick.

Lewin, the specialists department head, is right there, too. But they know. they've got resistance in the network. And yes, Littlefield can make the. decision, but they got to build. consensus here. So Warren pulls over a. guy from NBC Research named Preston. Beckman, and says, "You know the folks. at Neielson, the ratings company, I want. you to go talk to Neielen and see if you. can get custom reports made for each. airing of these new Seinfeld episodes. M.

>> and I want you to get reports by city, by metro area for each of these episodes. so that we can have some data of whether. this thing only plays in New York or. whether it's universal. So Beckman does. he goes to Neielson, he gets these. custom reports and it comes back. There. is no difference in audience retention. from the Cheers reruns to staying with. Seinfeld in any major metro area. the. same percent retain in New York as they.

do in Chicago or Houston or Seattle or. San Francisco. And that percentage is pretty high. It's. not 100%. Nobody retains 100% from. Cheers, but it's like high. Most of the. audience that is watching the Cheers. reruns sticks around and watches. Seinfeld. >> So, they're like, "All right." I mean, the audience is not big yet for this. It. wouldn't be big for a while, but there's. something happening here and and there. is something universal to this show.

It's not just New York where this is. playing. >> Yeah. >> So, end of the summer rolls around and. now the decision has to be made at the. network. What is the fall lineup going. to be? What are the new shows that NBC. is going to pick up? And uh Warren has a. a quote that's in his memoir, which is. great. He says, "I walked up to the. scheduling board and grabbed the. magnetic card that said Seinfeld. I took. it off the fringes of the board where we.

had our backup shows and I put it right. smack at the center." "This is our. future." Rick Lewin smiled. "Now that's. the way uh uh it's [laughter] in the. memoir.". >> "Success has many fathers.". The reality is, I think probably because. of all the internal politicking and. horse trading for the schedule for the. fall of the new season, they end up only. picking up Seinfeld as a mid-season. replacement. So, half a season. We'll. give you 13 episodes, not a full season.

order of 22 plus episodes. We're not. going to run it in the fall, but we will. slot you in when we inevitably cancel. one of the other shows in the spring. It's a half-hearted pickup. >> So NBC comes to Jerry into Castle Rock. and says, "Great. Here's a 13 episode. order." Larry goes to Jerry and goes, "I. don't accept this. I'm out of material.". Yeah. >> Like what what what else could we. possibly do? I've already put I' I've. mined my entire life for all the best.

crazy situations that we could possibly. put into these five episodes. I'm. basically scraping the bottom of the. barrel here. >> Yes. Yes, >> obviously that wasn't true because there. was way way way more material that Larry. would go on to create, but it is. illustrative of okay, they they got to. bring in some fresh talent because these. guys are not out experiencing the world. anymore. They're heads down writing a TV. show. They need writers who are out.

observing the minutiae of the world to. come and work with them. >> Yes, totally. It's also unbelievably. unlikely that this happened. By the time. Seinfeld gets picked up for this first. half season order, it's over 18 months. since they made the pilot, >> right? and over a year since the pilot. aired. But because of the way it came up. in NBC and through the specials. department and the belief that these. guys had in it to keep metering out.

little chances to it, it broke through. Yeah. So after they get the pickup, uh. Littlefield and Lwin already kind of. have a sense from Larry and Jerry that. they aren't going to take any more notes. from NBC. So they make another NBC. executive do it for them. They draft. another guy to come be the be the. hatchet man essentially. >> to give notes that you know are not. going to be taken. It's a giant waste of.

time. >> Yes. A guy named Perry Simon and Perry. has a great quote in in in Warren's. memoir about this. Larry and Jerry came. into my office and Rick Lewin was there. too. I tried to wing typical network. notes. Hey, you know, we need a little. more story. A little more of this, a. little more of that. Larry and Jerry. were incredibly gracious. Let us work on. this. We'll come back to you. And then. they walked out the door and I knew that. they were just like, "F that.". [laughter]. As in, "We're not listening to a word.

that those guys are going to tell us. ever again." Perry continues, "And now I. think, thank God, whatever they were. doing, they were doing it right. It's a. good thing they didn't listen.". Incredible. >> All right, so what were these sort of. early episodes? What What did season two. have in it? >> There's some good stuff in there. They. do the revenge where George quits his. job and then comes back the next day. like nothing happened. >> I guess Larry found some more stuff uh. in his life to mine for material. >> Yes. [gasps] They do the jacket, which. is one of my personal favorites. >> Oh, where Jerry has to flip the suede.

jacket inside out to go out in the rain. and then. >> with Elaine's terrifying father. Yeah. >> Won't walk with him. >> Another episode that happened to Larry. in real life. >> cuz Larry was dating Richard Yates's. daughter. Yes. And the character is. based on Richard Yates. >> Yes. Just like Elaine's dad in the TV. show. >> I see. >> And then the big moment, the Chinese. restaurant. That's in that first half. season. >> They never leave the lobby of the. Chinese restaurant in this entire.

episode. That must have been so. frustrating for the network executives. to get the script and be like, "Are you. kidding me? This is a single set sitcom. And not only is it single set, you're. not even going to use the set that we. built you on the sound stage. You know, this isn't free. Like, we have to build. a completely new restaurant set for you. to go shoot this episode in. >> And it's totally absurd what you're. doing. >> Basically, nothing's going to happen all. episode cuz it's just people making. phone calls from a pay phone, getting. mad at the guy who won't let you get a. seat. Is there really enough to move a.

story forward here in 22 minutes? And it. turns out it was brilliant. >> Yeah. A defining moment for the show. But this episode in production, NBC is. freaking out about it. So they consider. shutting down production that week of. the show, which they would do from time. to time with other shows. I mean, the. relationship usually of the network with. the show is the network can do whatever. they want and they don't like something, they they shut down production that. week. So Rick Lewin goes out for a walk. with Larry around the lot and explains,

"Hey, we got some concerns about this one. What are you guys doing?". >> And the network has real-time data. coming in from their ad salesforce. because they're talking about episode. plots to advertisers trying to get them. hooked on advertising. And. imagine you have to arm your sales force. with the whole episode's in the lobby of. a Chinese restaurant. It's not good for. NBC. [snorts]. >> Well, foreshadow. Imagine you have to. arm your sales force with the whole.

episode is about being the master of. your domain. [laughter]. We'll get to that one in a minute. [gasps] But yeah, so that you know, Rick. takes Larry out on this walk around the. lot and Larry just blows up. He just. lets him out. He's like, "This is what. the show is. This is this is my vision. If you don't like it, I quit. Fine. [snorts] You don't want to make it, show's over. And nobody did this. No. creator would see. Usually the network. says, "We don't like it." Oh, okay. Whatever you want. >> It's interesting cuz like this is why. Seinfeld succeeded. But the lesson here.

isn't be a blowhard and abrasive to. everyone and insist that your vision is. the correct vision and take no notes. ever. Dot dot dot success. That's not. for most people in most situations. that. is failure. But it just so happened that. these two were comic geniuses and and. were right and then absolutely worked. their tails off to refine these stories. with a team of writers to produce just. some of the absolute funniest material. ever seen on television at the time. But.

like what is the lesson? You hit the. nail on the head. I I was actually. talking to to Warren to Littlefield. about this in research because I sort of. asked you nobody ever made a show like. this again. Why not? it was so clearly successful. It was the right way to do it. And you. know, there's all sorts of reasons, bureaucracy and people's careers and. politics, etc., etc. But he also made. the really good point like not every. creator is Larry David and Jerry. Seinfeld. Like if you're going to let a.

genius be a genius, you need to be sure. you're working actually with a genius. [laughter]. >> And most people are are not. Occasionally out there there's a Nathan. Fielder or a Tim Robinson, but like most. people with these totally ludicrous, absurdist ideas are wrong. >> It's yet another parallel with Silicon. Valley, right? Like most founders are. wrong, but some founders are right. >> Y and when they're right, they're really. right. >> Yep. So season two, the first full half.

season here is great creatively. I mean. the the finale is the episode the bus. boy where Larry introduces the. interweaving story lines that all. intersect and resolve at the end in a. grand finale. Yeah. So this becomes a. hallmark of Seinfeld. Typically in. sitcoms there's an A story where it. opens on the A story that's like 60 70%. of the story and there's a B story and. you kind of flip back and forth and like.

maybe they rely on each other but it's. pretty separate. what they figured out. in Seinfeld and in particular I think. the bus boy that season 2 finale is. where they really catch their stride on. it. They would give each character a. story line. So you have four concurrent. story lines which means you have to be. really efficient in your storytelling. There could be no wasted words, no. wasted minutes. And as the episodes. progress, the story lines start to be. interwoven in unexpected and surprising. ways. And then they almost always.

converge at the end in like a violent. unexpected blowup that's unfortunate for. everyone and ruins all of their lives. concurrently and then cut to credits. >> Yeah. >> And that became this like real winning. formula for them which is hard. And. David, you you and I know this is hard. as you're structuring story. >> It's really hard. >> You're kind of like squinting from it. from all these different ways as. especially as the story gets larger and. larger. They're like, "God, how do I. introduce this here, but then pay it off. later, but then not spoil it in the.

middle?" And we're not even doing. comedy. We're doing storytelling here. >> We're doing non-fiction storytelling. >> Yes. Yes. It is an incredibly. specialized skill to be able to not. spoil the interwoven place where the. story lines converge, but make them all. funny along the way and make all the. payoff happen at all the right time. But. it's a thing they figured out that no. one else ever did before. >> I think I can tell you why. This is how. every truly great standup routine.

>> Oh yeah. >> This is where they're coming from. This. is the DNA of the show. >> The callbacks to the other jokes. >> Yeah. Yeah. At the end of a truly truly. great stand-up routine, there's a moment. where you realize that everything. throughout the whole 20 minutes or 60. minutes always was interwoven and. building to this moment. Yes. And that's. what they do with the TV show. >> No situation is uh is there for filler. Nothing nothing wasted. >> Yep. >> So that sort of takes us to what else.

makes this show different. We've talked. about the fact that they are despicable. characters which is not like novel now. A lot of people figured out, you know, we can put Michael Scott on TV. Deeply. flawed characters who aren't just like a. dad. >> that never learn from their mistakes. >> That's thanks to Seinfeld that people. can do that now. you know, they're. neurotic. Every situation that they're. in is largely their own fault for. getting into it. It's super relatable, but there's a lot of structural. things about the show also, like the.

interwoven plot lines that make it. unique and that are difficult to pull. off and that were just novel. So, a. typical sitcom that has a two-act. structure has seven scenes. That's it in. 22 minutes. Seinfeld, first of all, was two to three times as. many. So you'd have 14 to 25 scenes per. episode, but they just threw out the act. structure. Right. >> Plots often don't resolve. >> Yes. On the set,

>> they actually Larry originally wanted it. to be single cam instead of a multicam. setup to basically resemble a movie. And. for anyone who's unfamiliar, multicam is. sort of a precenium style show where you. have sets and you have four cameras and. they're all catching the same action. You might be able to get away with only. running the action once cuz you're. catching it from every angle and you're. just lighting it. It's going to be. really bright, but you're lighting it. from every angle so that any of the four.

cameras at any given time kind of works. >> Yep. It's like theater. Single cam is uh. probably more expensive because you have. to run the action multiple times. You. probably have to relight it every time. you're shooting it from a different. angle. So if you're shooting character A. and then the next run through you're. going to shoot character B, there's a. pause and relight step. It has kind of a. more cinematic feel. NBC was able to. push back enough to say we're not doing. single cam for this show. But they. brought in a lot of single camera. elements to it. So it it did have more.

filmic lighting. It often used a pretty. high number of location shoots for a. sitcom where they would actually not. shoot it on the stage that had the sets. that were pre-built for Jerry's. apartment for the coffee shop. >> Think about the number of Seinfeld. scenes that are out on the street or in. Central Park or in an airport or in some. other location, >> right? And that adds all this expense of. packing up the whole cast and crew and. getting them out there, especially when. you're you're shooting every week. They. borrowed a lot from cinema that was. uncommon on TV at the time. It's not.

overacted. I think in a lot of sitcoms. when I watch them today, anything pre-. Seinfeld, I'm like, "Oh my god, it's so. overdone." Like, "Stop selling me on. your fake emotion." Seinfeld is not. that. In fact, Jerry can barely act and. he's laughing through the entire thing. But since it's the situation that's. funny, it totally plays. And I think. Jerry's chuckle kind of like is a cue. for you to laugh along with him. Yeah. Oh man, the scenes with Jerry Stiller, who plays Frank Castanza, George's dad, are just they're so good. All the other.

actors are just they're cracking up and. you can tell. >> God, he's so good. Jerry Stiller, there's no artificial laugh track. So, this is like a purity thing for Larry. and Jerry as stand-ups. If they didn't. earn the laugh, they're not putting a. fake laugh in. >> right from the live audience that was. there. Every single laugh you hear on. Seinfeld is the live audience laughing. at that joke. >> Yes. Even for the scenes that were. recorded off set, they would play them. on video screens to the live audience.

when they were there for the taping and. then record the laughter from the. screens. >> Yes. Which has two jobs. One is record. the laugh. But two is they need to know. if those jokes are funny and they need. to change the episode if it's not. It's. like a real-time feedback mechanism. because these guys come from standup. >> Yep. Exactly. >> And then the last one that I didn't. really realize until last night. I was. watching a bunch of episodes and my wife. and I were talking about this. It was. kind of this light bulb moment for me.

Seinfeld episodes are not live camera. switched. They are edited in post. >> So normally what would happen is at a. sitcom you'd be sitting in a precenium. There'd be a live audience. The actors. are on the stage. There's someone at a. control board saying, "Camera A, camera. B, camera C. Okay, now back to camera A. Camera B. Go in for the twoot. Great. Cut to camera B." Like they're they're. directing it. Right. >> In Seinfeld, they they do some live. switching, but that's kind of to get a.

feel. All of the real work is done in. post, which gives them the flexibility. to do two things. One, to make all the. cuts much tighter. the scenes can be. shorter and you can get more scenes in. and more situational jokes. And two is. it lets you tell jokes you couldn't. otherwise do. So if you think about the. episode the contest where David you you. mentioned uh being master of your own. domain. [laughter] There is a joke where. the way the joke is told is they're.

cutting to each of those characters and. you're seeing them lay in bed and. they're either restless and they can't. sleep or they're sleeping like a baby. and that's the joke as it cuts around. That's impossible to do in a live switch. show because there's no way to make. those cuts in front of a live audience. You have to just go record all the. material and then have a whole step. after that of sitting there in a editing. bay making the cuts be the jokes.

>> And of course that adds production. complexity and expense. It's kind of a. way to get closer to the single cam more. filmike ethos. >> That's exactly right. It's hard, but. these guys are nut jobs. They're. obsessives. They're purists. And so they. want all the flexibility and pacing of. editing a movie while also getting the. benefit of what you would get with a. live audience at a play. That laugh to. let you know if the joke is landing or. not. And so they kind of threaded this. needle and invented a novel production. process to get the best of both worlds.

>> Yep. Yep. So, at the end of that half. season, mid-season replacement, Seinfeld. does get picked up for a real first full. season, season three of the show. >> Still with kind of a cult following, but. it's starting to catch. >> Still on Wednesday nights. They're not. on Thursday nights yet. But even at the. end of season 3, that first full season, Seinfeld was the 42nd ranked show on. television. Seinfeld's got this cult. following, all this creative juice, but.

certainly not the centerpiece for the. network. But season 3 would be the last. time that uh that would be true and. really that any of the actors in the. show, be they leads or guest stars, could live a normal life ever again. But. before we tell the story of how Seinfeld. finally caught on and became the. Seinfeld that you know it today, now is.

a great time to thank our good friends. at Sentry. >> Yes, that is S N T R Y like someone. standing guard, >> which is exactly what Sentry does for. developers. Sentry helps teams debug. everything from errors to latency. issues. Basically any software problem. and fix them before users get mad. So. David, I want to talk about the whale. [laughter]. >> My favorite episode. We're going to. spoil it. >> The show gave us the single best root.

cause analysis story ever put on. television. Absolutely. Perfect. illustration of why you need Sentry. decades before Sentry was invented. >> I love it. In the episode where George. pretends to be a marine biologist, he. wades out to the beached whale that is. in front of a crowd and comes back. holding a golf ball that he pulled out. of its blowhole. And he says, "The sea. was angry that day, my friends." The. actual root cause of the golf ball being. in the blow hole of the whale is Kramer.

from way earlier in the episode when he. was hitting golf balls into the ocean. Nobody in the audience connected those. two story lines until George pulled out. the Kramer golf ball. >> And that is exactly what a real software. outage postmortem feels like. >> Yes, [laughter]. >> there is the hero of the story who gets. paged in the middle of the night and. that they tried to fix the issue, but.

then there's the golf ball. some small. change that shipped a long time ago that. nobody mentally connected to the thing. that is currently on fire. The hard part. is not noticing the whale on the beach. is realizing that ah it is actually the. golf ball causing the issue. >> Yep. Yep. And that is what Sentry does. It takes the thing your users are. yelling about and traces it back to the. exact change that started it. Which.

release, who was impacted, and the very. commit or very golf ball with the. developer's name on it. Then all that. context goes straight into whatever. writes the fix, whether it's clawed code. or cursor or sentry's own agent seer, which finds the issue and opens the PR. for a human to review. This is why. 200,000 organizations run on Sentry. Whether it's a solo side project or the. engineering teams at Anthropic,

Verscell, Linear, or GitHub. You can. learn more about where software gets. fixed at centry.io/acquired. or click the link in the show notes and. just tell them that Ben and David sent. you. All right, so here we are now in. the fall of 1992 heading into season 4, the second full Seinfeld season. The. show is this cult hit. >> It's maybe a little more than that. Season 3 averaged 18 million viewers per. episode. >> Yep. But it still hasn't cracked the. Neielson top 30, which is crazy though.

I got to interrupt you. That $18 million. that's not in the Neielson top 30 today. You would never ever ever see 18 million. people watching a single thing. No. matter how good a show is, other than. like NFL and NBA games. I mean, there. were four networks. That's what you. watched. YouTube, >> phones, podcasts, short form video. I. mean, cable had just started coming up, but most of America's attention is still. on one of those four broadcast networks. in prime time. So, 18 million viewers an.

episode, not cracking the top 30 is. nuts. >> I mean, I think we're still a year away. from the Mosaic web browser, right? 1992. >> Yep. >> Yeah. There's no competition. >> Yep. >> It's a great time to be in television. >> Yep. Meanwhile, though, NBC, the. network, has a problem because Cheers, the anchor of its whole comedy lineup, is on its final season. And Warren and the whole crew of the.

executives there don't know what they're. going to do to replace it. So, Time. magazine ran an article from this time. NBC, the one-time kingpin of prime time, has seen its fortunes turn sour almost. overnight. Its biggest hit of the 80s, The Cosby Show, took an early retirement. last spring. The network's last. remaining top 10 hit, Cheers, will call. it quits at the end of this season. Highly regarded younger shows like.

Seinfeld, have not lived up to ratings. expectations. The network is desperately in need of a. miracle. And then on top of that, so. Seinfeld is running on Wednesday nights. currently here going into season 4, ABC, the competitor, moves their big new. comedy hit sitcom, Home Improvement, to. compete directly against Seinfeld in the. Wednesday night slot. So for the first.

time, Seinfeld not only, you know, has. to prove that it can get a bigger. audience, but it has to do so against a. big challenge, a direct competition in. the same time slot from another network. Yep. And uh. Home Improvement kicks its butt. Yep. So. by mid-season, Home Improvement is. pulling 28% share of audience in its. time slot and Seinfeld is down at 17.

Not great and doesn't feel to me like. the future of the network. I mean the. 17% if you're thinking oo 17% versus 28%. they're like a close second or something. like that. They got so much of it for. free. >> Yeah. >> It's like if you're going to turn on. your TV there's four options more or. less that people are actually watching. in this time slot. So, it should be very. competitive. >> Yep. Larry and Jerry though, and. especially Larry, they don't care. Like, they're not making the show for the. ratings. So, this season, season 4, they.

just go on like a an alltimer. So, they. start with I I think the first seasonl. long meta arc ends up becoming a showong. meta arc where they have NBC, a. fictional NBC ask Jerry in to pitch a TV. show. >> called Jerry. >> called Jerry. [laughter]. >> They with his other name called. Seinfeld. >> And he and George come up with the idea. of a show about nothing to pitch it to.

NBC. That's the first episode of season. 4 that then continues off and on. throughout the whole season. >> And the off and on is important because. each of these episodes still can stand. on its own. You don't have to be. invested in the story, the multi-. episode, season long arc in order to get. it. >> Yep. Episode seven of season 4 is the. bubble boy. Another classic. >> I'm not sure you could make that now. Like if that was actually a news story.

right now, making fun of the bubble boy. that everyone is writing articles about. is completely off limits. >> Well, speaking of completely off limits, that brings us to the critical midpoint. of the season where. everything changes. Episode 11. >> Isn't the outing also in season 4? >> Yes, but later after episode 11. >> Ah, I see. >> Also so good. Not that there's anything. wrong with that. >> Not as good as episode 11. Not that.

there's [laughter] anything wrong with. the outing, but it's not as good as. episode 11, the contest. So, oh man, we've alluded. to this, but for anybody listening who. hasn't seen or heard of this episode, this is the master of your domain. episode with the four characters. making a bet to see who can go the. longest. >> The episode opens. George walks into a diner and the. opening line that he gives Jerry,

Elaine, and Kramer in the booth is, "My. mother caught me." [laughter]. >> I can't even keep it together just. talking about the episode. >> They don't need to do much from there. They go the entire episode without. saying what they are having a contest to. try not to do. There's just this giant. unstated elephant. You know exactly what. the elephant is the entire episode and.

yet it's perfect. It doesn't break any. rules, but they break all this new. comedic ground. >> So apparently, like all or almost all. great Seinfeld episodes, this actually. also happened to Larry in real. [laughter]. >> Of course it did. And Larry, even Larry was scared of this. episode. He would been thinking, "Nah, we can't do it. It's it's too much." But. finally here by season 4, they've got.

enough confidence and enough, you know, just no fear attitude. Larry's talking. to Jerry and says the idea and Jerry. says, "That's funny. Let's do it." So. they write the episode, the two of them, in secret. Usually what they would do in. their office on the on the set, the. Larry and Jerry's office that they. shared together, they had a a. whiteboard. So if you watch the Seinfeld. reunion on Curb Your Enthusiasm, that's. in the office. You can see the. whiteboard and on the whiteboard they.

have all the plot points for all the. characters and the candidates, etc., etc. So anybody could come in their. office, the other writers, the NBC. executives, they'd see what's on the. whiteboard. They didn't put this one on. They just wrote it in secret. I don't. know if they put decoys. That would be. even better. >> Word did get out though. >> Well, so the story continues. So they. have it in secret all throughout the. writing process and then it gets to the. table read. So the way the week would. work was the cast would do a table read.

of the script first and then do some. rehearsals and then they would shoot the. episode. So this is pretty close to. filming. Like you're well into. production week at this point. They. bring out the script and. NBC is just like, "Oh my god.". [laughter]. >> We're gonna talk about the full. schedule, the weekly schedule of making. a Seinfeld episode in a few minutes, but. know this. When you're at the table. read, you are 6 days from shooting the. episode for real in front of a live.

audience in studio. >> Yeah. You're pretty close to the point. of no return or as close as Larry and. Jerry could engineer getting. >> Yes. before revealing what they were. doing. So, the broadcast standards. department at NBC, which is the in-house. sensor that is responsible for keeping. all of NBC's programming up to broadcast. standards rules, they of course hear about this right. away. They're just losing their minds. And the woman who runs this department, her name is Dr. Raz Weinman in New York, she calls up Warren and is just.

apopleleactic. And Warren's like, "Well, you know, it's Seinfeld. It's the guy's. They don't say the word. It's funny. And somehow, I don't know if she was a. fan of the show. And she got it. She. said, "Well, [sighs]. all right. We're going to keep a close. eye on this. Like, we could pull the. plug at any time, but in this case with. this show, it might be enough that this. show has a pact with its audience that.

we can get away with this. This is. unbelievable because broadcast standards. really has two jobs. One is are we. literally going to fall a foul of any. FCC regulations where we will get in. trouble as a network? Two is is there. going to be any blowback on our network. where it hurts our brand? People don't. like us anymore, advertisers run things. like that. And if you're not running a. foul of one because no words are coming. out of your mouth, then it's really just.

about. >> the question is only number two. Yeah. Right? Do we think the audience will. love or hate this? And I think it's a. big risk, but a very perceptive one to. be like, >> Seinfeld actually has cultivated an. audience where this is entirely okay, especially done this artfully. >> Yep. Yep. So, broadcast standards lets. it through and then sales calls up and. they're like, "Are you out of your mind? You know, we have to we have to tell the. advertisers what their spots are going. to run against." And Warren says, "All. right, well, let's let them keep going.

we'll get a rough cut of the edit before. we have to put it on air. So, the rough. cut comes in, they give it to sales, sales shares it. with the advertisers, they come back and. they say, "Hey, we've got a bunch of. advertisers that are going to pull out. They're not okay with this. We're going. to have to cut the rates for this. episode to backfill to get enough people. in last minute, enough new sponsors to. fill the episode." Warren says,

"Okay, how about this? There are these. cable networks out there, MTV's out. there. They've got this same kind of. audience. They're killing it with a. bunch of alcohol companies as sponsors. and, you know, Nike sponsoring them. What if you guys go to all the. advertisers on MTV and say, "Hey, we've. got an opportunity to get you into. Seinfeld this week." which they do and. they fill the episode and that's how. sales allows it to go through. For all. the advertisers that didn't pull out the.

regular sponsors that stuck with the. episode, they end up having leatherbound. copies of the script printed, [laughter]. autographed by the cast and sent out as. a thank you for sticking with us. And. then the episode airs, there's no. protest. It's great. It becomes the first. catchphrase moment for the show. Master. of my domain. Are you master of your. domain? >> Yep. >> It completely changed the rules for.

Seinfeld. >> And it cemented Seinfeld as a water. cooler conversation show. >> Yes. >> This was something you were going to. share with your friends. >> You sure as hell were going to talk. about this the next day. >> Yeah. So many years later in 2009, TV Guide did a ranking of the greatest. television episodes of all time. This. episode was ranked number one. >> Yeah, of course. So, had they moved to. Thursdays yet at this point?

>> No. No. They're struggling. They're. getting the pants beaten off of them by. Home Improvement here on Wednesday. nights. This is like the crucible moment. for the show. So, right after this is. when NBC makes the decision. They say, "All right, this is magic. We were right. about this show that it's just special. We're going to have to bet on this. We're going to make this our future. We're going to move it to Thursday right. now. We're going to air it after Cheers.

And then when Cheers goes off the air. after this season, Seinfeld is taking. our top slot. >> if it performs. This is audition. >> Which of course, Larry David, he's furious about this. >> Yes. Yes. >> His quote is, "If they didn't watch us. on Wednesdays, I don't want them. watching us on Thursdays. [laughter]. >> We've earned this weird niche audience. that is our people." And you're just. about to like blast us out to the mass. public. Yeah. >> Just going to go right from Cheers into.

Seinfeld. They're going to get hit by a. mental bus. >> Yes. Famously, that was Larry's. reaction. And equally famously, this is. why they were such a great partnership. Jerry's response to NBC about the move. to Thursday night was, "Thank you very. much. We will take the new time slot.". [laughter]. >> Yeah. Good business decision. >> Yes. Yes. It is interesting thinking. about Larry's reaction here. So, part of. it is like just this purist because he's. a purist in so many ways and he's got. the element of George Castanza. He's not.

as pathetic as George is. No, >> I think that's a fairer. George, they've. amped up the pathetic dial to 11, but he. does have the sort of uh duality in him. that George has, which is thinking he's. the greatest thing to ever walk planet. Earth. And George is not, but Larry kind. of is, but coupled with extreme. self-consciousness, self-loathing, and. self-doubt. >> Yes. >> And so to tell Larry David like we're. going to promote you to this giant spot.

is like no. No, if people truly loved. us, they would have sought us out and. found us. I don't need these people who. aren't going to do work to watch my. excellent, perfect television show, >> right? [gasps and laughter]. >> And I think it is true, you know, we. think about this for acquired a lot. I. think there's a business strategy angle. to growing slowly through word of mouth. It makes you more durable when you grow. slowly through word of mouth and have a.

core of extreme fandom versus quick mass. exposure. It's like the quicker you go. up, the quicker you go down. Whereas I. think Seinfeld taking four seasons. across five years to break through is. part of the durability. There was like a. real core to explode out from. >> Absolutely. That is all true. And once. you make the contest, you can't go back. That's true. You got to go to Thursday. night. You got to be in the big leagues.

It is a landmark moment. >> Okay. So, I never understood why. Thursday nights were such a great. business before or why this was such a. big deal for TV. People would always. talk about the Thursday Night Lineup and. I grew up watching Friends. When I. watched Seinfeld, it was more in reruns. cuz I was born literally the month that. the pilot came out. So to me, the whole. arc was basically before I was of. Seinfeld watching Age. I've now seen. every episode, but mostly in reruns. So. for me, Friends was the anchor NBC show. on Thursday night. And I kind of knew.

Thursday was the biggest night, but why, right? Why is it different than Tuesday? I get why it's different than Friday. Friday is a weekend. Saturday and Sunday. are kind of about sports or going out or. living your life, but like why are we. discriminating between days of the week? It was your last chance to reach. audience before the weekend. >> Yep. >> So, if you're launching a movie that's. going to come out on Friday, you need to. be advertising. If you're launching a. product where you want to drive people. to stores over the weekend, if you're. trying to hit consumer messaging before.

some set of weekend activities, Thursday. night was your last shot at it and it. was the most important for recency bias. to land a message. If you're NBC itself. and you want to advertise that week's. NFL matchup, yes, it is the most. important night. And. the Thursday night lineup on NBC was. more profitable. than all of the other nights combined.

>> What? >> Yes, >> it's that outsized. >> Yes, it was that outsized. Now, part of. that, too, was just because NBC was such. a powerhouse on Thursday night. That's. where their marquee shows lived. >> But wow, cuz you have the same amount of. ad inventory you are selling each. weekday y night. >> and Thursday's rates were high enough. that it dwarfed the sales for all those. other nights. Wow. Yes. Combined. >> Yes. So Seinfeld moving into this.

hallowed time slot is huge. Huge. And. boy does it work. So the first week that. Seinfeld moves to Thursdays in February. of 1993, NBC, by the way, had had the. Super Bowl in January 1993. They used. promos during the Super Bowl to announce. the Seinfeld move to Thursday night. So.

they went big. >> And had they coined it mustsee TV yet? >> No. So they rolled out that must-sea TV. slogan for. Seinfeld as the anchor moving into. Thursday nights. >> and it was what Seinfeld Cheers had. ended. So I guess Frraasier was the. spin-off was just starting. I think. Wings, right? >> Mad About You. >> There's a whole subdrama of Wings was. the golden child from the comedy. department at NBC. So the the actual. sitcom department, they were always. trying to push Wings over Seinfeld. But.

NBC did something really smart here, branding the night as Mustsea TV and. creating like a network identity around. NBC rather than just marketing the shows. themselves. So you actually ended up. with this affinity for the network. >> I mean for me growing up NBC meant. something because of this. Like none of. the other networks meant anything. They. just had stuff that I watched on them. >> And that continued. I mean if I think. about what came after Seinfeld, Friends, The Office. In between the two, you had.

Will and Grace around the time of The. Office and later you had 30 Rock, Parks. and Wreck. >> Yep. Yep. >> There was like this whole. >> NBC comedy powerhouse. >> Yes. >> Yep. >> And a lot of it using SNL talent. >> Yes. >> Which is also NBC, >> which is also technically true of. Seinfeld. [laughter]. >> Yes. >> So, back to the the actual move here in. February of 1993. When Seinfeld moves. from Wednesday to Thursday, the show's. ratings rise 57% and it goes from the. 45th most popular TV show on air to the.

fifth in one week. Now, obviously, a. huge part of that is the power of the. time slot, but it's also like after the. contest, it changes everything. You. can't go back. And the thing that was. shocking even to everyone at the network. was if you put something after Cheers, it's going to get good ratings, but it's. going to be a drop off from Cheers to. that show. It's just a matter of how. much drop off. Seinfeld actually gained. audience over Cheers that they retained.

the Cheers audience and then new people. tuned in just to see the next Seinfeld. episode. >> This this is the punch line. I mean, now. here at the big leagues, first run. Thursday nights, it retains all the. audience and then by the end of the. season, it's bigger. It's crazy. >> It's the new anchor show. >> It's the new king. >> Larry is uh asked about this in 1993. The LA Times does an interview cuz I. think viewership hit an average of 30. million viewers per episode by this. point. And uh Larry's quote is, "This.

probably means that a catastrophe is. imminent. Something terrible will emerge. from this. I don't really know how to. account for it. >> Oh man. Oh [laughter] man. Well, a. catastrophe was not imminent because, you know, the season continues. They. just keep crushing it. The outing. >> Yep. >> Episode 17. Not that there's anything. wrong with that. Episode 20 is the. junior mint. >> Oh, of course. >> Which really starts to foreshadow the. absurdity that would come into Seinfeld. in in later years. >> This is a great example of the concept. of the episode is a joke in itself. like.

the absurdity of Jerry and. >> Kramer, Jerry and Kramer. >> get invited to observe a surgery from. like a balcony above the O and they're. eating Junior Mints and one of the. junior mints gets fumbled and actually. ends up falling into the patient. [laughter]. >> Oh yeah. >> Which, fun fact, using the cameras at. the time, the cameras would not have. picked up a junior mint. So, they. actually used a York Peppermint Patty. That's right. For the slow motion. tumble.

>> Great trivia. Great trivia. And uh the. cultural relevance, the catchphrases beginning with master. of my domain, master of your domain. After that, we get yada yada yada, double dipping, shrinkage, festivist. I. mean, on and on. These are all words and. phrases that Seinfeld invented. And all. this is hitting here as we head into. 1994, 1995, right as the internet is coming online.

>> That's right. According to the book. Seinfeldia, which is a great read, there. were a bunch of early online communities. about Seinfeld, >> analyzing each episode the week it comes. out. It was crazy. Steve Casease would. talk about head of AOL that AOL's main. competition was Seinfeld. They would. never see AOL connection numbers dip. except when Seinfeld was airing. And. then they would go right back up as. everybody came on AOL to talk about. Seinfeld.

>> And you know who's talking about stuff. on the internet? Urban, well-educated, affluent young males. >> Yeah. I mean, it was the the the most. perfect timing ever that you could. imagine for this type of show to have. that moment of cultural relevance with. the contest, move to the marquee slot on. Thursday nights on NBC, and then have. the internet hit all in quick. succession. >> It's amazing. So, this is all going. really well, but what's going on inside.

is basically killing the people who are. making it. I mean the obsession that is. going into this the like every word and. the writing and the rewriting and this. obsession with the the joke nothing else. matters. It is these like real aours. that attracted other people as psychotic. as them to obsess with them. and they. needed to because at this point Jerry. and Larry after five years of existing.

in writing a television show, they're. not experiencing the real world anymore. So, they need to keep bringing in young. writers because they need to mine those. people's brains for stories that. happened to them. They need to find like. mini Larry and Jerry's who still live in. New York hopefully so they get some. element of that. But what ends up being. an amazing bed to recruit from is the. Harvard Lampoon where it's these young. comics, super smart, except that they.

actually are experiencing the world. So. every year for a while, they were. bringing in a completely fresh crop of. writers cuz they would basically steal. all the best material from everyone's. life and then move on to the next one. I. mean, Festivus was a thing from. someone's life. George's whole thing. about is he going to put a tip in the. jar when they're not looking because he. doesn't get credit for the tip. That's a. thing from someone's life. you kind of. need all this fresh blood to come in and. get material. Okay, so how did it work. to actually.

produce the weekly Seinfeld episode? Thank you to Alec Berg and David Mandel. for talking us through this. They were. writers on the show and then there's. some great interviews with Jason. Alexander that share a lot of the. detail, too. So, the typical sitcom. schedule would start its life on a. Monday with rehearsals leading up to a. Friday shoot. And on Seinfeld, they. realized, well, actually, we could start. the week on Wednesday and shoot the. following Tuesday. And when the actors. go home for the weekend, that means we. can get some extra time coming in and.

rewriting the episode to make it better, which is fine since then they weren't. married, they didn't have kids, like. they had no personal life to speak of. They were obsessed with this. So, that's. just what they did. So, day one, it. starts with a table read. Everyone is. there. There's producers, writers, NBC. executives, Castle Rock representatives, and uh as Jason Alexander put it, they. would then have a go big pow-wow after. the table read. They would give their. notes, then Larry would quit, [laughter]. then the notes would be thrown away, then Larry would agree to stay, and then.

he would come back tomorrow. [laughter]. >> Sounds about right. >> So that's day one. And the actors start. trying to do some rehearsing, but it's. all going to change so materially, and. they kind of know it, so they're not. taking that rehearsal that seriously. It's just like familiarizing themselves. with the material. So Larry and Jerry. would then go do a bunch of rewrites. overnight. The scripts don't really have. stage direction. It's just dialogue cuz. they're comedians. That's that's what. they write. And so then the actors had. to figure it out. So Seinfeld had this. really unique collaborative way where. the actors would stay on set even when.

it wasn't their scene. So they could. work through it together and they could. trade. say, "Oh, actually, I think it. would be more funny if Kramer's at the. fridge right now with the door open. going through or or than maybe George is. and and trying to figure out the. blocking together.". >> Yep. >> So then day three, more full rewrite. overnight, more rehearsing, still just. internal to the team. The network's not. there yet. The actors, they're there, the writers, Larry, Jerry. This becomes. more or less the shape of the final.

script. Then at the end of the day, NBC. and Castle Rock come in. They watch a. full run through. They give their notes. As Jason Alexander says, Larry would. quit. Their notes would be diminished. and Larry would come back. Day four is. camera block day. So, this is when the. cameramen come in and start learning. their shots, who's taking what. The. episode is sort of finalized enough to. figure out what shots do we need and. which cameras are we assigning. And it's. a very difficult thing cuz it's not like. the four cameras just sit there and.

don't change. Let's say you're camera. one. You're responsible for a wide shot. It comes off you and goes to camera. three. You have five seconds to. scramble, shift, zoom, get a two shot on. two characters because then when it. flips back to you, that's where you're. supposed to be. >> So, it's this like real ballet and art. So, they all rehearse as a unit, the. cameramen and the actors because the. next day they're in front of a live. audience. Yeah. On day four also, especially as the show got bigger and. they were doing more on location filming.

where they'd shoot outside the permanent. sets, the the coffee shop and Jerry's. apartment, they do things like go to the. fake New York street on a different lot. to do the sort of outdoor street shots. or actual filming locations like the. cemetery where George visits Susan. [laughter]. >> Oh boy. >> Yeah. Then day five is rehearsal in the. morning. Then you bring in the live. audience to film in the afternoon. They'd run the entire show in. chronological order. And if there's any. scenes that were not on those permanent.

sets, because the audience is just. sitting there in front of the coffee. shop in Jerry's apartment in in big. bleachers, they would bring down a. screen so the audience could watch a. rough cut of what was shot outside and. that way they could record those laughs. just like we talked about earlier. If. they didn't get a laugh, do you know. about what they would do, David, if they. if it wasn't going as expected? Even. with the live audience there, they would. pause production. They would huddle all. the writers and the actors and the. director on stage. They would bring out.

a live band who was just like waiting on. set to entertain the audience. And they. also had like comics and stuff warm up. the audience and they would huddle and. try and figure out like a better joke or. how to rewrite it live. >> The best example of this is in the. marine biologist. So, the episode is. supposed to end with George walking into. the ocean. And if you've seen this. episode, that is not the end. >> This is the best story. >> It's so good. They bring down the screen. to show the on location shot. George. walks into the ocean. Audience is kind.

of confused. There's been like a lot of. buildup, but there's no joke here. So, they all huddle. They come up with this. idea for George to have the additional. scene in the booth where he does a. monologue and then he finally produces. the golf ball out of his pocket which is. of course tying in a plot from earlier. in the episode where Kramer's hitting. golf balls into the ocean and that golf. ball turns out to be lodged in a whale's. blow hole in George's story line which. is why the whale needed a marine. biologist in the first place that George. was pretending to be. >> So it's so good. Larry goes off after.

their huddle and he writes a full page. monologue on the spot which Jason. Alexander tells Larry, "Yeah, I can do. that. I'm a Tony Awardwinning actor. Like, I'm a theater actor. I This is Put. me in, coach. Like, this is what I do. Give me a. >> It's already late at night here at this. point in time." So, yeah, he memorizes. it, performs it on the spot. It's. incredible. >> It's the first time it's ever been read. There was no rehearsal when George goes, "The sea was angry that day, my. friends." Oh, so good. >> It gets this giant laugh and then of.

course when the laugh finally dies down. after he produces the golf ball, Kramer. looks at him and goes, "That a. titleist?". >> Yep. [laughter]. >> Hole in one, huh? >> So this happens and then the next day. they come in for a table read. >> Yep. >> Isn't that insane? >> Nonstop. In parallel to this entire process is. the pre-production where all the writers. are, you know, some paired up in groups. of two, but often just alone in their.

own offices writing the next week's. episode, the week after that, the week. after that, and then. >> and Larry and Jerry are working with. them and getting it ready for the table. read. >> But like, how are they working with. them? Cuz they're also fulltime. in a in a 7day work block to. >> produce the current episode. It's crazy. that no wonder they're just kind of like. looking over outlines of the next week. and the week after and why it requires. so much rewriting week of is because it. really hasn't gotten especially Jerry's.

attention yet. >> Yeah, the Seinfeld star is burning. brighter and brighter and brighter and. consuming everybody within it in the. fusion reactor at its core. Yes. which. is a good time to flip back over to the. business side of Seinfeld. because also right at this time after. the move to Thursday night after the. huge success after the internet starts. to come online Seinfeld.

hits syndication. So Jerry's quote to. the LA Times here is we'll be in. syndication next year and that will. probably help us further the same way it. helped Cheers. Most people are still. just now discovering our show. Most of. the audience watching the show on. Thursdays have not seen us before. They're new to us. There's 60 some odd. episodes they haven't seen. >> Yep. Oh boy. And where those 60 episodes. going to be worth a lot of money to the.

uh ownership group that we discussed. earlier in the episode cuz Seinfeld is. basically the most perfect syndication. show ever created because of the no. hugging, no learning element, no. character development, no relationship. development. You can tune in anytime to. any episode in any order. Doesn't. matter. You're going to get a full. entertaining experience.

>> And because these characters are. just kind of vessels that you don't. really need to invest in their. storyline, they're just like mirrors of. the worst part of ourselves. [laughter]. The situations provide the comedy. And. so it's a very internationally relatable. show, too, in a way that not all comedy. has. >> Yep. Yep. Totally. So why now and what. exactly is this business of of. syndication? There's sort of a magic. unofficial number for TV shows back in. this time of a 100 episodes. That was.

when you entered into syndication. And. the 100 episode thing kind of stems from. you have a large enough number of. episodes to demonstrate that people. liked the show and there was familiarity. with it or you wouldn't have continued. and that there's a big body you can. license. Y. >> to someone to show it because they don't. want to buy your 10 episodes. That's not. interesting. They want to buy a big. block of them. And so syndication for. those not familiar is basically anytime. a show gets licensed to another.

distribution option besides the primary. firstr run TV network. And essentially. those options are international off. network which this is the biggest one. for the longest time. I did not. understand how this worked. When NBC. buys a show, they're buying it directly. from Castle Rock, but once that enters. syndication and the reruns are going. constantly, that has nothing to do with. NBC. >> Yes. >> That is just the local affiliates. And. the local affiliates, you know, it.

starts with a K or a W. It's a. four-letter station that's broadcast. over the air in your city. >> Yeah. And it might be a NBC or an ABC or. a CBS or a Fox station, >> right? but they only take the network's. programming during prime time or. sporting events, etc., etc. >> The rest of the time they have to go. find their own programming. So, either. they need to make it or they need to go. buy it directly. >> and there's like a thousand of them. And. so, this is where Sony actually does. something. This is where the distributor.

matters. >> Yes, they earn their keep. Now, for off-. network syndication, what you're really. trying to figure out is how many of. these individually owned local TV. stations are willing to buy my 100. episodes and at what rate. And so, that. is how off-net network works. Then. there's off-net network cable. Same. thing, but to cable stations. Fortunately, there's many fewer cable. stations than there are local TV. affiliates. And then in the far future, but it didn't happen yet, is uh. subscription video ondemand or.

streaming, which would become a very. very valuable part of syndication. But. the interesting thing about the TV. business is just how large off-net. network syndication and streaming. syndication could be relative to the. original firstrun business. Because if. you think about what does it actually. cost to make a Seinfeld episode in. season 1? Probably less than half a. million dollars. probably less than. $400,000. You're not paying the stars that much. yet. Production costs aren't actually.

that high. And so then what's NBC going. to pay for it? $300,000. You know, >> 80%ish of whatever that number is. Not a. lot of money. >> So let's look at season 2 for example, 12 episodes. That probably costs somewhere in the 5. to6 million to produce, which means it's. somewhere in the fourish million dollars. for NBC to buy. It's actually like kind. of a small. thing, but those. 12 episodes when they're sold later in.

syndication can fetch huge sums of. money, especially if it runs for a long. time because the rights can be sold over. and over and over again. And the most. important thing is that group, David, that you were pointing out, that sort of. cap table of who owns the show, it's a. totally different split from who makes. the money the first time around. The. first time around there's all these. people you're paying on salary, especially the actors. The second time. around, the people who are participating. in all the syndication, it's that whole. waterfall of who actually owns the show.

Yep. And this is back to why Larry and. Jerry got the most valuable deal in. television history cuz they got huge. amounts for creators in that backend. waterfall. Yeah. And then that backend. waterfall would be billions and billions. of dollars. And this is where it all. starts, >> at least reportedly. Again, this is like. a funny thing about doing this versus. covering public companies is like we're. relying on some reporting done by a few. news outlets over the years, but I think.

we have to take that at face value. >> Yes, but assuredly billions of dollars. have gone through this waterfall. So, yeah, we we sort of joked about. Sony/Colia earning their keep in this. first syndication cycle, which is just. for local broadcast affiliates. They. can't take it to cable yet. Sony sells. the show to a record 224. local TV stations across America out of. the thousand TV stations total. So.

basically one station in every market of. the country taking the exclusive local. rights. And that generated an aggregate. sum of $500 million in revenue. Actually. over $500 million in revenue in a single. event here in 1995. And that was just. for the first 5year syndication window. and only on local TV affiliates. Not. even on cable yet. >> Yeah. And it turned out that those local. affiliate stations that were paying all.

that money for Seinfeld. actually were getting a pretty good deal. because all of a sudden. reports start popping up as Seinfeld. enters into syndication where stations. that would run Seinfeld reruns would end. up winning the time slot in their local. market. they would beat live programming. on other stations at the same time. So.

like let's say your, you know, local. affiliate TV station in Buffalo, New. York. You decide that you're going to. run Seinfeld reruns during a particular. time slot when the other stations in. town are running local news. Seinfeld. beats the local news. >> It's the audience of people who never. got to watch it on network cuz it only. ever aired twice. Like you missed a big. episode. Let's say you missed the. contest. you were working the first. night and then you weren't around. because you were doing summer travel or. whatever. The only chance to catch it is.

in syndication and that's a thing that. everyone talked about. That could be a. marketing event if you were a local TV. station trying to drive a bunch of. attention. We're going to air that. episode, >> right? You could market that you are. going to be running the contest on. Tuesday night at 11 or something like. that. >> I mean, that's sounds way more. compelling than local news to me. >> or whatever other local programming. I. mean, I think um Wheel of Fortune, there. were a lot of like game shows that would. be I think the phrase is firstr run. syndication that would skip the network.

altogether and be produced directly to. sell to the local affiliates. Actually, Oprah was this. >> Yes, we talked about this on our Oprah. episode. >> Yep. >> And just to make it even more fitting, that same year in 1995 when Seinfeld hit. syndication is when Finson gets. repealed. So, the door is now slammed. that no other shows are going to have. these dynamics because the networks now. are going to own their own shows. And. this is going to play out over broadcast.

television a little bit and it's going. to play out big time in the streaming. era, which if you're Castle Rock, it's a. good time to cash in your chips because. you have this super valuable library. which you own. you actually own it and. it's guaranteed to make all this money. in the future. And the regulation that. was in place that let you make future. shows, you have no idea if you're going. to be able to sell the next hit show to. NBC. They probably should make it in.

house themselves. So, this is a very. good time to uh sell the company. >> Yep. So, Castle Rock sells itself to Ted. Turner and TBS here as this is all going. down. It's a little earlier, December. 93, but saying, >> but it was when when it was announced. that the Finson rules were going to get. repealed, even though it went into. effect in 1995. Castle Rock sells to. Turner, >> it was $100 million in cash for Castle. Rock's owners, plus another $30 million. or so in paying off the outstanding. debt. So, the total out of pocket that.

Turner paid for Castle Rock, which owns. that huge share of Seinfeld's profits. and a bunch of other great stuff, was. about 400 million. What an unbelievable. steal to get the Castle Rock Library for. that. >> And of course that happened before the. actual sales of the first syndication. cycle for Seinfeld. >> Right. >> Right. >> Woo. Also, isn't there a wild story that. Steve Bannon was an investment banker on. that deal and took some of his.

commission in equity on the Seinfeld. waterfall. The details are a little bit. murky on this, but I have seen it. reported that Steve Bannon still gets. royalties from Seinfeld syndication. >> Yeah. Because of because of this deal. Wow. Wow. So Turner and TBS buys Castle. Rock and then they turn around and sell. to Time Warner in all this consolidation. that's happening. The net of which is.

that Castle Rock and the largest. ownership slug of the Seinfeld waterfall. ends up in the Warner Brothers library. All right. So, Ben, you said now was a. great time to sell in the moment. Yes, for Castle Rock. But actually, even if they had no viable. future business [laughter]. >> from Finson ending, >> from Vincent ending, they should have. waited because the value of the Seinfeld.

Waterfall once syndication hit was about. to become way more than the $400 million. that they paid for it. I'll spoil the. ending for everyone. We're pretty sure that Castle Rock, if. you work through the whole waterfall, made somewhere between two and two and a. half billion dollars on Seinfeld. syndication over the years, but they. captured almost none of that because. they sold the entire entity. And so it.

was actually Turner and then Warner. Brothers, the IP's ultimate resting. place that would have received. >> the lion share of those proceeds. So uh. I will revise my previous statement. Castle Rock absolutely should not have. sold, but no one could have known that. Seinfeld would go six syndication cycles. and be as relevant as ever three decades. later. >> Yep. But importantly, Sony keeps the distribution rights. We'll come back to that when we get to. streaming in a little bit. Yep. So, that.

was the business story of Seinfeld from. 1993 to 1995 culminating in that first. syndication sales cycle where Sony. generates an astounding $500 million in. revenue that hits the uh so to speak cap. table, right? Sony gets their cut off. the top of that, but then there's. probably 400 plus, maybe 425ish million. dollars that then flow through to. everyone else who owns the Seinfeld IP. just for this first cycle of syndication.

to the off-net network affiliates to. watch around the US. >> And uh then the next year in 1996, Larry leaves the show. Honestly, it's. hard to blame anyone after walking. through the intense pace that they'd. been working at for six years now. Well, yes, and yes, I think that is the reason. Larry left the show. He was totally. burned out. He'd gotten married at this. point. He was ready to move on with his.

life. But putting that aside, now that. you know the economic history of the. show, Larry leaving in 1996, of course, makes sense, right? Why stay? Everybody just got the payday in 1995. from syndication. He's in the money. And. he's not just in the money with a. one-time payout. Now, he's in the money. forever. And it's not like he was making. a lot. I don't think, again, we have no. access to these private contracts. But. in general, a non-acting.

creator lead writer is not drawing a. giant paycheck on a per episode basis in. making a show that you know, you own the. show. So, you're expected to make your. money on the back end, which is going to. happen whether or not he makes any new. episodes. >> Again, to use a startup analogy here, this is like the company went public and. the lockup ended. >> Yeah, that is the right way to Yep. >> there's a lot more value you could. build, but other people can build it, too. >> You're going to have a life-changing. event. >> Yes. But for the show, this is brutal.

because everyone else was kind of just a. input to Larry in the writer room. And. Larry was like, we heard him referred to. as the CPU. You know, he would be the. one that ultimately would come in on. weekends, do the rewrites. You could get. a script most of the way there and you. could always be confident that Larry. would make it great. Without Larry, they. need an entirely new process, >> right? And like Jerry was there as the, you know, co-processor, but he's also. starring in the show. >> Oh, Jerry was not available to play.

Larry's role. is you can't have a lead. writer who is also running the whole. show as producer and the lead actor and. you know doing all those rehearsals that. we talked about. So what this leads to. is more people are involved in the. writing process and they just need more. hours. So now all the writers are coming. in on weekends not just Larry like the. old days. And when we were talking to. Alec Berg about this, who was a writer. on the show, he told us that he looked. at his calendar at one point and. realized that he had come into the. office every day for some amount of time.

for 56 days. >> Yeah. Yeah. What was the story like? They would go watch the Super Bowl and. then the all go back to the office. after. >> Yeah. Jerry would run a suite for. everyone at the Beverly Hills Hotel and. then back to the office. >> So, it's a herculean task after Larry. leaves. Castle Rock and and by extension. NBC keep upping Jerry's salary, like the. amount that he was being paid per. episode for all of his duties. First to. $500,000 an episode and then by the.

ninth and what would end up being the. final season of the show to an. unprecedented million dollar per. episode. >> Per episode. >> Per episode. >> For one person who also owns the show. >> who also Yes. gets all that back end. that we were talking about. >> The tenor of my voice should not be. anything around like surprise or didn't. earn it. But it's just like to. underscore these are separate things. getting paid as the person making the. show slacting in it and the ownership. >> Yeah. The show though, I mean, look, you.

can argue whether seasons eight and nine. are as good as the Larry seasons. >> They're certainly different, but they're. more ambitious. >> They are more ambitious. Yeah. The only. way that they could find to sort of move. past Larry was to try and do bigger. stuff. >> And there's some classics. I mean, true. Alzheimer's in there. Uh, The Bizarro. Jerry. Yep. >> The Chicken Roaster. The Kenny Rogers. episode. >> Yes. >> The Andrea Doria. >> Muffin Tops. Is that in there? >> The Pot Hole. >> Uh, Van Beern Boys.

>> Yep. Yada yada yada. Yep. >> You're right. Muffin Tops. The Summer of. George. I mean, this is season 8. They're firing on all cylinders. Season. nine, the butter shave, the voice. >> The butter shave. >> Serenity now is season nine. >> Oh, that's right. Yeah. Jerry Still got. a bigger role. >> The slicer, the dealership, the reverse. peepphole, the wizard. These are all. season 9. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, creatively, definitely. different, but still excellent. Ratings. and ad saleswise though for NBC,

[laughter]. >> that's changed quite a bit. >> The show definitely does not miss a beat. with Larry leaving. So, in 1996, Seinfeld makes $150 million of profits. for NBC after paying ad agency. commissions and all the production fees. that they're paying to Castle Rock for, you know, whatever it is, 80% of the. actor salaries and sets and production, all that. In 1997, the show makes $200. million in profits for NBC. So that's.

the revenue they got from advertising. minus the cost of paying Castle Rock for. the show is $200 million. >> And I think also the cost of commissions. to ad agencies for the advertising. >> I think it was actual profits. >> because to put that in context, NBC's. entire profit during that era was about. a billion dollars a year. So 20% of the. network's profits were coming from. Seinfeld directly. >> and probably more than that because. those directly attributable numbers.

actually understate the value of. Seinfeld because the way NBC would sell. their ads. Let's say you were General. Motors, you wanted to place a $30. million ad buy for Seinfeld that season. You can't do that. The only way you can. get $30 million worth of media on. Seinfeld. >> is to buy $200 million of media on prime. time at NBC that season. [laughter]. >> Bundling, baby. >> Bundling. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Then.

there's all the value that Seinfeld. delivers in terms of launching other. shows or propping up other shows, you. know, just like Cheers did for Seinfeld, >> right? So, it's how much revenue did it. catalyze and then also that it served as. a launch pad for other shows. Y that. sets up the 1997. cast renegotiation of their salaries. >> cuz they haven't been making anything. near where Jerry was and they have no. back end. It's not like the cast of the. show owns the show like the creators do.

They're paid actors. They're employees. >> They just get their union guild standard. residuals in the show which is peanuts. I think Jason Alexander has been quoted. as saying that each of them probably. lifetime in standard guild residuals. from Seinfeld got4 million dollars or. so. >> But they were making good salaries at. this point. Early on it was nothing. But. then by this point I think it was. $160,000. per episode that they were making now. that they were big stars in the number. one show. >> But they start getting pretty nervous.

cuz they're like. this show's days might be numbered. like. we don't know how long Jerry can keep. this going. How long Jerry will want to. keep this going. Larry's already left. They're both rich beyond anyone's dreams. here. >> They realize that after the eighth. season, they kind of have a now or never. moment where they need to hold out and. negotiate for much higher salaries, >> which is incredibly awkward because the. relationships between the actors and.

Larry and Jerry was always fantastic on. set. It is notoriously a very. professionally run show. There's no like. drama between people. Whenever issues. came up, they would resolve them and. move on and try to get to the root of. it. >> And they would actually help each other. with their acting, which other TV shows. like there was an unwritten rule that. actors didn't give notes to other. actors, >> right? So, it creates this big. awkwardness of we're all going to hold. out, >> right? I mean, at the end of the day, Jerry holds all the cards because he's. the one who decides whether the show.

continues and how, >> right? Nonetheless, they get it all done. at the deadline for the ninth season. And Jerry supports the cast by telling. NBC and Castle Rock that he will agree. to come back for a ninth season in 1997. into 1998, but only if the whole rest of. the cast also signs on. Like, he's not. going to come back if they aren't able. to sign all three of the other cast. members, too. Yep. So, they reach a. deal. $600,000 per episode for each cast.

member for one season, plus an option to. extend that same deal for a second next. season, hypothetical 10th season if the. show comes back, which is all dependent. on Jerry. Yes. So on season 9, the cast. effectively did secure what they had set. out to do. It wasn't like the highest. number that they originally asked for, but it did get them the amount of money.

where they don't need to work again. because all of them are extremely typ. cast now. It's like the worst thing as. an actor to be on a number one show in. an extreme role like any of these roles. >> and not have back end. >> and not have made your entire rest of. your life's income from that show. because it's just hard to get other. parts. So, at 600K an episode, that's. $14,400,000. for each of [snorts] Julia, Michael, and.

Jason in that season. Good. Like, yeah, not what it would be if you had backend, but like you could live your the rest of. your life on that when you may have cut. off your ability to make big money from. acting ever again in the future. So with. Jerry now at a million dollars an. episode, each of them at 600,000, that. means that the cost per episode of. talent is 2.8 million, which now means. that the cost of each episode is, I. don't know, $3.5 million, but NBC is.

absolutely happy to pay this. >> because, as we talked about, giant. advertising profits. Yeah. So 70 80. million in in production costs for the. season. Okay. We're going to make 200. million directly from ad sales, let. alone all the other secondary benefits. that come from it. >> Yep. And we should note here too that. Jerry's $1 million per episode salary. made him the highest paid TV actor in. history at that point here in season 9. >> Yeah. Without backend. Yeah.

>> Just from the per episode fees. >> Just from the per episode fees. So, all. of this. leads here at the end of 1997. to Jack Welch inviting Jerry Seinfeld to. brunch to discuss. a hypothetical 10th season. Jack Welch, the CEO of the conglomerate General. Electric, which is at the time thought. to be the bestrun company in America, in.

the world. >> Yep. and I think the most valuable. company by market cap in the world at. this point in time. >> Yes, it is worth Jack Welch's time to. take this extremely seriously and invite. Jerry Seinfeld to brunch. >> and talk about a potential season 10. >> Yes. But listeners, before we tell that. story, now is a great time to tell you. about one of our favorite companies, Work OS. You have heard us talk about. this all season. Once you find product. market fit, the fastest way to grow is. up market and enterprises won't buy your.

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working there [laughter] without ever. being fired. When he Kramer finally does. get fired, quote unquote, for sloppy. work, he says, "I don't even really work. here.". >> This listeners is the situation for most. agents today. People just hand out. shared API keys to an agent or borrow. human login credentials with full. permissions, but obviously with very. little accountability. It's really not. that different from Kramer managing to. get an employee badge. >> Yes. So, work OS built the right.

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dollars. More than 80% of their. databases are created by agents, not. people. An agent reads neon.com/off.mmd. spins up a database scoped to that. project and a human claims it later with. one link. >> Nice and clean and much more secure. >> Off used to mean proving you are you. Now it means proving your agent is. allowed to do this specific thing as you. right now with limits. That's how you. get in the door with enterprises now. And it's why OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor,

Perplexity, and hundreds of other AI. startups build on work OS. You can learn. more at workos.commd. and just tell them that Ben and David. sent you. >> All right, so Jack Welch invites Jerry. to brunch at the end of 1997. They set. it up in the then CEO of NBC, Bob. Wright's apartment in New York City on. the 38th floor of the Trump Tower. In.

attendance from the NBCGE side are Jack. Welch and Bob Wright, the NBC CEO. Helping prepare for the meeting were. Warren Littlefield, president of. entertainment, and Don Olamire, who is. NBC's head of LA operations, which is. the, you know, location of the. operations of the show of Seinfeld since. it's filming in LA, which I still can. never get over that Seinfeld was filmed. in LA. Even some of the exterior shots.

of the [snorts] apartment are. recreations of New York buildings in LA. >> I know. I know. I don't like to think. about it cuz it feels wrong. >> Right. So, that's the GEN NBC side and. then Jerry is obviously there and George. Shapiro and Howard West the talent. managers agents are are there too. They. settle down to brunch and the NBCGE team. brings out slides, like presentation.

slides. Jack Welch starts giving the. presentation to Jerry Seinfeld over. brunch making a presentation arguing. that the show has not yet reached its. peak. It can go higher. It can get. bigger. You can do more. Jerry, we have the data. The audience wants you. back. It's not over. You haven't reached. the top. [laughter]. >> Wow. [gasps]. >> Jack concludes his pitch to Jerry with.

this line. You know, Jerry, I go all. over the world. Everybody who talks to. me, they only want to know one thing. Is Jerry Seinfeld coming back [laughter]. for another season? And that line about. it hasn't peaked, that is one of the. things that is going through Jerry's. mind in addition to like exhaustion and. having really not started his life. because he's just been doing this for 10. years. >> Yeah, he's 43 years old at this point in.

time, >> right? There is the concern that the. show will keep going past its peak and. he doesn't want to see it. So, the only. way to go out on top is to go out before. you reach your peak because you're not. going to time it perfectly. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. All that's going through. his mind. Jerry starts demuring after Jack's pitch. sales job here. He's not outright. declining, but he's making noises. He's. like, "Ah, gosh, I appreciate it, Jack, but I I don't know that I really can can.

keep it going." They say, "All right, well, don't make a decision now. Don't. make a decision now." The meal ends. Everybody stands up. Jack says, "Jerry, come over here for a minute. I want to. talk to you oneon-one. [laughter]. He takes Jerry Seinfeld to a corner of. the room. Jack takes out a piece of paper and he. starts writing some numbers down on the. paper. He writes down $5 million.

22. 22 episodes [laughter]. $110 million. He hands it to Jerry, says, "This is a. firm offer for your salary for next. season, $5 million an episode.". >> If you come back and do a 10th season, >> Jerry is already the highest paid TV. actor in history at $1 million. And Jack Welch is handing him a piece of.

paper. Not not not just like GE. executive Jack Welch. Mr. Operational. efficiency six sigma black belt. [laughter] Yes, >> people are replaceable. Go listen to our. Home Depot episode about how cost. focused Jack Welch and GE is is making. Jerry an offer, a firm offer to 5x his. already record salary. [laughter]. >> That 110 million is 11% of NBC's total. profit for the year.

>> Yes. >> That is being offered to him. >> as salary to Jerry. >> Yes. >> Not as like budget for the show. >> who already has the back end in the. show. This is how valuable Seinfeld is. to NBC, to GE. So Jerry says, "Well, all right. Thank you." Um, I'll get back to you. >> Keep in mind, listeners, that Seinfeld. is the only show in history from this. last season to ever command over a. million dollars a minute for advertising. rates, a feat only previously.

accomplished by the Super Bowl. >> Yep. Yep. So. the group disperses and Jerry says to. Howard and George, "All right, let's go. for a walk." They go for a walk in. Central Park. They stop and they sit. down on a bench at 81st Street and. Central Park West. And Jerry looks at. George, looks at Howard, and says, "Guys, when I was 21 years old, I sat on. this same bench with my dad when I told.

him that after college I was going to go. into stand-up comedy as my career.". And he thought it was a great decision. He backed me all the way. He said he. wished he could have done it. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> So, what do you think we should do? Howard looks at Jerry and he says, "Gosh, if it's me, I'd love to do one. more season.".

>> George looks at Jerry and he says, "If. it's me, I think it'd be great to go out. while we're on top.". Howard says, "You're the guy making the. show. It's your call.". Couple days later, December 26th, 1997, day after. Christmas, the New York Times runs an. article. >> Oh, they run this article on A1 in the.

top left corner of the paper. >> Yep. >> Front page news. >> Seinfeld says it's all over and it's no. joke for NBC. The article reads, "Seinfeld, the most. popular television comedy of the 1990s. and the centerpiece of the most. profitable night in television history, will stop production at the end of this. season." Jerry Seinfeld, the show's. creator and star, said yesterday, yesterday being Christmas Day 1997.

[laughter]. Mr. Seinfeld said his decision did not. hinge on money. Instead, he wanted to. follow the tradition of stand-up. comedians and leave the stage with the. audience wanting more. Jerry would later. say about the decision, "I thought about. the audience. How are they feeling? Where are they? I was trying to perceive. it like a comedian on the stage. When. you've been on the stage for a pretty. long time and nine years is a healthy.

run and they're still screaming, if you. can get off, they'll scream even louder. They'll never forget you. That was the. best business decision that Jerry. Seinfeld ever made. [laughter]. Cuz on the surface and at the time and. for a long time after the narrative. around this is like, oh man, Jerry, gosh, he was so burned out and it was. comedic timing. It was artistic, it was.

personal, but man, it was a terrible. business decision to walk away from $5. million an episode. >> And you're about to make the argument. that it's because they went out on top. that syndication went nuts. Is that what. I'm hearing? That's the argument I want. to make is that actually it was the best. business decision [laughter] that Jerry. Seinfeld ever made. >> Okay. So, let's [snorts] explore that. So, in the hypothetical world where they. do season 10, season 11, Jerry's making.

hundreds of millions of dollars out of. each one. They're good, but like it's. getting tired. Kind of jumps the shark. You believe that there would not be the. staying power to go through six. syndication runs at very high dollar. amounts, including recently here in 2026. with Netflix. Maybe I could I could see that. >> I think so. I think this is. >> the taste left in people's mouth. >> It's the taste left in people's mouth. And the reason that three decades later.

Netflix has paid a billion dollars to. the cap table of Seinfeld this decade. over a decade. >> is because of the cultural relevance of. Seinfeld. >> And it's Jerry's quote. It's Jerry's. quote. If you can get off that stage. when they are still screaming, they'll. never forget you. And by our estimates, Jerry so far has earned somewhere around.

threequarters of a billion dollars from. ongoing syndication sales, DVD sales, all back-end deals of Seinfeld over the. past 30 years. And yeah, my argument is. that a a huge part of that value was set. up and protected by Jerry's decision. here at Christmas 1997 to end the show, go out on top. Because if you look at. the data over the 28 years since. Seinfeld ended and the 31 years since it.

first entered syndication, not only has. Seinfeld never gone off the air, interest viewership. basically has remained constant, as in. like very very very high. There are many. times the number of people I've seen. estimates of 3x to 5x who have watched. Seinfeld since it went off the air. compared to when it was on the air. >> Right. Right. Right. So yeah, if you. take that the majority of Seinfeld's. audience have come after that Christmas.

decision. >> It's an interesting hypothesis. A uh. different [laughter] hypothesis was put. forward by the Harvard Business Review. This is listeners. David and I read this. quote, I want to say like a decade ago, and have referenced it a dozen times. since cuz we think it's like one of the. all-time greatest business quotes. >> No doubt it is. >> And it is delightful that we get to do. an episode on Seinfeld and bring it up. >> So, I've got the whole thing here. Somehow, Jerry ended up getting.

interviewed by Harvard Business Review. in 2017 when he was doing one of the. promotional cycles for comedians in Cars. Getting Coffee. The HBR interviewer. says, "So, you cut off the show when it. was so successful really as a result of. the fact that you were burned out. Why. didn't you try to come up with a more. efficient, more sustainable way to make. the show? What would McKenzie have said. if they'd come in and said, "There's a. better way to do this?" And Jerry says, "Who's Mckenzie?" The interviewer says,

"Well, Mackenzie is a big consulting. firm." [laughter] Jerry says, "Are they. funny?" The interviewer says, "No.". Jerry says, ' Then I don't need them. The interviewer says, "No interest in. efficiency or" and Jerry says, "No, no, if you're efficient, you're doing it the. wrong way. The right way is the hard. way." Well, for him, it's it's this. extrapolation of the thing that he. learned going on Carson when he was in. his 20s, that if you don't just grind. and find new material the hard way and. write and think and rewrite and go.

through all the pain, then you're going. to run out of material and you're going. to become irrelevant. like you you must. go through the fire. >> And and look, I think there's two things. embedded in this McKenzie, you know, back and forth here that we love so. much. One, for our purposes of the. episode today, is the point that even in. 2017, the consensus view was that this. was a bad business decision that Jerry. made. two, more universally, Jerry is so absolutely right in what he.

says in response to the interviewer. here. At least in any creative field, and I think any entrepreneurial pursuit. is by definition a creative field, the. efficient way is is is the wrong way. Like if you're going to do the accepted. efficient what McKenzie will tell you to. do, you are going to get accepted normal. efficient results. If you want outlier. results, you need to take the hard way. >> It's the Bezosism that he likes to. invent and wander. Without wandering, you cannot invent. They are.

intrinsically linked. >> Yep. Yep. So, we're in the last season. of the show. What happens next? Well, first off, the second syndication cycle. kicks off. Sony goes to work again and. this time they can add cable syndication. in addition to local broadcast. affiliates, >> which is the thing that has been true my. whole life, which I said at the end of. our last episode, which is you can't. turn on the TV without finding Seinfeld.

on some channel, be it broadcast or. cable. >> Yep. So, here's the amazing thing. that happens. Remember, we told you in. the last syndication cycle that Castle. Rock got acquired by Turner, by TBS. When Sony goes out to bid the cable. rights, TBS Turner makes an over-the-top. bid of a million per episode for four. years of cable rights, which is almost. $200 million. Wait, so TBS is buying the.

rights from themselves, but they have to. go through Sony to do it because Sony. owns the distribution rights. >> Yes. [laughter]. This is why the distribution rights. remaining with Sony was so important to. the business of the show because it. means that bonafide real bids always. have to happen for Seinfeld rights. >> I see. Because if. >> TBS couldn't just say, "Nah, it's not.

going to market. We got it.". >> Fascinating. >> And then Turner, of course, gets. acquired by Warner Brothers. So, fast. forward to today with the streaming. rights, which we're going to talk about. in one second. Warner Brothers can't. say, "Ah, no, we're just going to keep. Seinfeld on on HBO Max, >> the thing we own.". >> The thing we own. No, no, it's got to go. it's got to go out to bid because. >> Sony has the right to distribute it. Warner Brothers doesn't actually. get to go on our service. They have to. make a bonafide bid in addition to.

others like Netflix and the free market. for it. >> Free market capitalism driving maximum. shareholder value to the Seinfeld cap. table. >> All right. So what is the 1998. syndication fetch? So in total across. the renewed broadcast affiliate sales, cable now with TBS and international, it brings in a reported $1.1 billion.

of total revenue here in 1998. >> So for those keeping track at home, the. show's not even over yet, and. syndication has already fetched $1.6. billion. >> Sure. making that uh decision at. Christmas time for Jerry go down a lot. easier here when the second syndication. cycle happens. Which brings us to the finale of the. show. I think the thing that people don't. realize about the Seinfeld finale and.

that I didn't realize until doing this. research was that it's a thank you. It's. a thank you to all the guest stars that. made Seinfeld what it was over the. years. >> Yeah. So, what is the finale for those. who haven't seen it or those who don't. remember? On May 14th, 1998, they aired. a special extended episode. They brought. back Larry David to write it. He had. been doing other projects for the last. two years. and the the gang is put on.

trial for some sort of new law. >> violating the good Samaritan laws. >> where they watch someone get held up in. a carjacking and they do not intervene. to help. And they are bringing in dozens. of past guest stars as character. witnesses to attest to if these people. are good people or not, which is just so. perfect for the uh theme of the show. But when you're watching it, you kind of. do think this might be a little. excessive.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> This might be a little much. And the way. it ends, spoiler alert, so like stop. this episode right now if you care about. not knowing how Seinfeld ends. They are. convicted and go to jail. for violating [laughter] this Good. Samaritan law because the parade of. Seinfeld guest stars over the years. paint this very clear-cut case that. these are not good people. >> Yeah, >> it's perfect. and poetic and also at the. same time I completely get the public. outrage at how much they didn't like it.

and how much they hate that these. characters just all end up going to jail. as the end of the episode. >> Yeah. Yeah. The fact that nobody likes. it doesn't really matter. If anything, it maybe kind of adds to the lore of the. show because it's the ultimate No, there's no there's no point. Nobody. learns anything. There's no development. >> Yes. >> So much so that we're not even going to. give you a satisfying finale. And yet it. is watched by 76.3 million viewers, which is 58% of all viewers that night.

The finale ad rates eclipse the Super. Bowl. So NBC sold 302 spots for as much. as $2 million. This is back in 1998. That is uh about 54% more than the $1.3. million you would pay for the same 32nd. advertisement during the 1998 Super. Bowl. >> Yeah. One of the advertisers during the. finale is Apple, which is in the middle. of their think different campaign,

right? >> And they run a special. >> commercial where they add Jerry. >> at the end. >> to the think different campaign. He is. the final black and white person that. flashes up on the screen and it's the. only time they ever ran the think. different with Jerry in there. >> Yep. So good. >> Interestingly, this was not the highest. or really even like close to the highest. watched finale ever. MASH, Cheers, and. The Fugitive were much higher numbers in.

their finale. But to me, the interesting thing is I've. never watched a single episode of any of. those shows, and no one's paying. anything to get the streaming rights to. them now. They're not relevant. They. didn't. >> transcend generations. And there's. something very, very interesting and. intrinsic about Seinfeld that made it. last. Even though on the highest day of. heat and light and attention on them, they actually weren't the biggest finale.

ever. >> Yep. And audience reception wise, the. finale was not loved at least. But. again, it doesn't matter. >> And to put a perfect comedic button on. it, the joke that Jerry makes in the. jail cell is the joke that opened the. pilot where they are talking about the. second button on the shirt even while. they're sitting there. >> in jail. And then the last perfect. little piece of comedy is David, did you. watch the Curb Your Enthusiasm finale. two years ago, maybe 2024?

>> No. No, I I did not, but I did watch the. the Seinfeld reunion on Curb. >> Oh, yeah. Everyone should know that the. on Curb they did a arc of four or five. episodes that were fictional Larry David. planning the Seinfeld reunion in the. finale. Again, spoiler alert. If you've. never seen the Curb Your Enthusiasm. finale, give you three seconds to pause. The finale is a trial just like. Seinfeld. Larry gets convicted. Larry.

goes to jail. He's sitting in the jail. cell and someone walks in and he has a. visitor and it's Jerry Seinfeld. And he. opens up the door and he says, "Hey, turns out it's a mistrial, but uh you. don't want to end up here. [laughter]. This isn't where it ends. You don't want. this. Trust me, nobody wants this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter and snorts]. >> And it's a 25 year payoff from a joke. that was set up in 1998. >> So good. So good. I I have seen that.

clip. So good. Uh all right. So I think. let's put a bow on the economics of. Seinfeld's first run on NBC. >> Ignoring all syndication. >> No syndication, just the first run. business for NBC. NBC in total made. about $2 billion in cumulative. advertising profit from Seinfeld during. its run. But again, that vastly. underounts the actual value to NBC. because of the dynamics of well, you.

can't buy Seinfeld, you got to buy. >> prime time, etc., etc., >> but no ownership because they rented it. >> Yep. Castle Rock takes a loss on the. show by design. >> That's right. [laughter]. By design, they lose money on. nine years of Seinfeld. >> It's kind of like the first nine years. of an early stage venture portfolio. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Although that's not fair because in. years what six they started. participating in syndication, right? >> You're scoping this just to. >> No syndication, just the just the first. run. >> Colombia/Sony,

they're like a did not play. >> They make zero dollars. They spent $0. >> again by design. Cumulatively, Jerry. made 50 to60 million dollars in salary. from all of his seasons of Seinfeld as. the star, creator, coowriter, etc. You. know, huge, huge, but peanuts compared. to the back end. Larry's salary during. the show, as we talked about, has never. been reported, but it's safe to say. much, much lower for Jerry's and only. for seven seasons. The rest of the cast. we talked about, they're just employees.

In total, they each probably made 25. million or so, kind of give or take. But. of course, from a syndication. standpoint, the business is just getting. started, >> right? In some ways, the story here on. our episode is over, but the business is. barely started. So to date, Seinfeld has. had a record six plus broadcast. syndication cycles, more than any other. show in history for broadcast.

syndication. >> No other show ever got five, right? >> Not on broadcast affiliates. The just. on, you know, like. >> cable TV land, etc. Over the decade of. the 2000s, the show continues to do. great. By 2010, the show had done $2.7. billion. in total syndication revenue for off-net. network and cable. 3 years after that, by 2013, that figure is up to $3.1.

billion. Along the way, they also start to drip. out DVD home video releases in a great. business model move only one or two. seasons at a time over several years, followed by the complete box set at the. end of it for true collectors. >> In total, DVD home video generates, we. estimate about another 500 million in. revenue. So, call it up to 3.6 6 billion.

total post airing revenue. There's. actually a fun kod to the cast economics. with the DVD releases. They hold out. again to get backend in the DVD releases. in order to come back for the. commentary. I think this is part of why. it takes so long to get the DVDs out. >> No. Interesting. >> And you know, totally makes sense on. their end, right? Like it's is the last. point of leverage that they have. and. gets reported that each of the cast. members get kind of like low tens of.

millions each out of the DVD sales. >> Along the way here throughout the 2000s. and into the 2010s, I think Jerry and. Larry start to realize. that basically their main economic job. from now on is to be on a permanent book. tour for Seinfeld the show. like to be. permanent ambassadors to the continued. cultural relevance of the show. >> without being too on the nose. Like I'd. say they both pursue their artistic.

passions and a secondary benefit to the. work that they make is that it. reinforces the relevance of Seinfeld and. like you know Curb reinforces Seinfeld. especially when you put the reunion of. Seinfeld on Curb and Jerry doing his. standup. He would be doing standup no. matter what. But it definitely reminds. people that the show Seinfeld exists. >> Well, I think all of these things are. true. I think Larry and Jerry. made the decisions to do what they did.

after the show, the activities and. projects they pursued out of personal. and artistic reasons. And kind of if you look at this like. through the lens of our Disney flywheel. from our Disney episodes, the way you. maximize the value of [snorts] IP in a. flywheel is you generate lots of other. IP around it, but you don't disrupt the. core thing. And that's exactly what. Jerry and Larry do. They never disrupt. the sanctity of what Seinfeld is. But.

Jerry's standup, comedians and cars. getting coffee, the standup specials, again, even Curb, these things never. compete with Seinfeld. They only focus. attention back on it. Yep. And look like. they're probably making at least as much. money from the increased attention on. Seinfeld as they are directly from any. of those things. Even Curb. I mean, Curb. was great, but it was on HBO, so it. didn't make a lot of money. Like, Larry. David made a fraction out of.

[clears throat] 25 years of doing Curb. as he did from seven years doing. Seinfeld. >> Yeah. You know, we can't do this whole. episode without uh bringing up the. raging racist remarks that Michael. Richards had in his standup. >> in 2006. >> Let's just scope this to the business. because that's what this podcast is. about. Aside from just how absolutely. awful the the comments were, it's a. problem for the business. >> Totally. It puts the business model at. risk, >> right? If you are a Seinfeld cap table.

member like Castle Rock and these folks, the goal is to keep this asset going to. keep people loving it. And if that could. have spiraled into a boycott the show. Seinfeld thing. And I think everyone had. to t tow a very tight tight rope between. one their feelings about the issue, two. their feelings about Michael as a friend. of theirs, three making sure to. appropriately condemn condemnable words,

but four, make sure that Seinfeld is. able to like be preserved as an asset as. they go through that PR crisis. Even if. it just creates some subconscious. >> ick. >> negative associations and ick for. viewers, it's really really sensitive. the value to perception here. So it was. interesting kind of going back and. watching a lot of the commentary on. that. Jerry offers up things like well. you know a comedian on stage is not. actually that person. It's sort of a. person playing a a role. But like if you.

look at it from a pure comms and and. like business incentives perspective, you need to condemn the act enough. to make people go, "Okay, good. Jerry. doesn't have his hand in the sand here. He realizes how awful that was." But not. condemn it so much to make people go, "Well, then I don't like Kramer either, and I don't want to watch Seinfeld. because of that.". >> So, it's kind of interesting the art of. stewarding a business asset. It involves. a lot of that like tightroppe walking.

>> Yeah. A business asset that is where the. value is so tied to the present- day. cultural relevance. >> Yes. >> So, yeah. Then there's the internet. that's associated with all this too. I. mean, it's kind of amazing. Again, back. to Seinfeld hitting its stride right as. the internet was going mainstream. The. memeability, the catchphrases, the gifs. on the internet. >> Gifs. Gifs. Gifs gifs. Sorry.

>> It's like hearing a memeable moment. right now. >> Like a like an untuned piano. [laughter]. >> I'm sorry. I apologize. The gifts on the. internet, you know, like the modern. Seinfeld Twitter account becoming one of. the early big mainstream Twitter. accounts where the whole premise is, you. know, Seinfeld episodes in the modern. day. That's all part of it, too. >> Yep. >> Which brings us to streaming. >> Yes. So syndication is still a thing on. broadcast networks and cable stations, but that's not where the big money is.

anymore. It's these streaming deals that. really get started in 2015 with the Hulu. deal. So that was a $150 million 5-year. deal. >> Yep. It would uh go up from there. So, two years later in 2017, Jerry signs a personal deal with Netflix. to bring Comedians in Cars Getting. Coffee onto Netflix. >> It was on Crackle, right? It was like a. web series. >> It was on Crackle. Do you Do you know.

what Crackle was? >> I have no idea what Crackle is. >> Crackle was Sony's early in-house. >> web streaming network. >> Got it. >> That's why it was on Crackle. And then. that went away. So that sets the stage. for this Jerry Netflix deal to bring. Comedians and Cars over and to do two. new standup specials for for Netflix. because when the first renewal cycle. comes around for Seinfeld streaming. rights in 2019, Netflix does a landmark deal with Sony.

worth reported well over $500 million. for five years of worldwide exclusive. streaming rights to Seinfeld. That is a huge amount of money. >> and this is a result of Netflix had. friends and the office which I think. became their top viewed shows and they. were losing them because friends it's so. funny all three of these shows were on. NBC. Friends was produced just like.

Seinfeld in the Fininsson era and it was. produced by Warner Brothers which is. exactly where the rights are held for. Seinfeld. So you might say Friend and. Seinfeld are the same. But in the case. of Friends, Warner Brothers also. controls the distribution rights. Those. were not ever owned by Sony. So HBO Max. is about to become a thing. Warner. Brothers is like, "Nope, Netflix will. take Friends back. We're going to use. that on our streaming service cuz we. control the distribution rights." And. The Office was produced after all the.

Fins and stuff. So NBC actually owned it. directly and they go, "Nope, Netflix. We'll take that back. We're going to put. that on what's about to come out and be. called Peacock. So Netflix loses their. top rerun sitcom shows. They need. Seinfeld real bad. And Sony owns the. distribution rights and is not coming. out with a streaming service. So they're. kind of the only ones to go to and say, "Give me 180 episodes of people loving. their 90s and 2000 sitcoms.".

>> Yep. So it all goes down that same year. in 2019. friends with HBO Max and The. Office with Peacock. They have to. announce like a a dollar value for the. deals that they do because they have to. calculate all the guild residuals to. come out of it. >> And I think the creators did have some. backend there. >> Yes. kind of suck to have backend in a. deal where the distribution wasn't. independently owned, right? Because it. means that like you just kind of have to. trust that the invisible wall between.

the sides of the company exists and the. re the value is the real fair market. value. >> Yep. So they announced that the friends. deal is $425 million for 5 years and the. office deal is $500 million for 5 years. But this is not real money. So all three. of these are in the same ballpark, but. Seinfeld is the only one where there's. actually a company paying another. company. >> And then that brings us to this year. with the 2026 Netflix renewal reported. as slightly lower than the original. greater than $500 million deal. But this.

time it's exclusive for Netflix only in. the US and Canada, not worldwide. So. Sony is basically taking the bet here. of, oh, we can start selling. international streaming rights for. Seinfeld separately and monetize those. better, which they will begin selling. shortly here. >> Yep. In addition to that, they're still. doing the other forms of syndication. So. basic cable to Paramount for 45. millionish. They had a full cycle four.

and a full cycle five and a full cycle. six. So all told here, all the. syndication ever, all the off network. and international and cable, the. streaming, plus all the DVDs, this is around $5 billion to the cap. table of Seinfeld from all of these. deals. And it's real liquid cash. changing hands every 5 years when they. do a renewal cycle because Sony has no.

streaming service of their own. >> Yep. And all of that is just so far. I. think at current course and speed, you. can reasonably expect another billion. plus in streaming rights to get stacked. on top of that every decade from Netflix. or whoever takes it next. >> Assuming it stays this relevant, but you. would think if it fell off in relevance, it would have happened by now. >> Yep. And it definitely hasn't. Uh, and. then you know total total revenue, you. stack the two billion in profits for NBC. from first run, you're at easily seven.

plus billion dollars for this little TV. show that shouldn't have gotten made. >> And by my calculations, David, this. thing probably in total, including. everyone's salaries, even that crazy. high last season, cost about $250. million to make. [laughter]. And those costs stopped in 1998. So this. is an asset that's now well above $7. billion in returns that keeps stacking.

another billion dollars every decade. And all the costs are paid for 30 years. ago. >> It really is like a Silicon Valley. startup type story. Yes. >> As a TV show. I mean, it's not Google or. or Facebook. We're not talking about. trillions of dollars or Nvidia here, but. that that level of investment would. continue returning cash flows for that. period of time of that magnitude. >> And it's a 30x on its costs. >> Yeah. Incredible. >> That's the other thing is if if you just. divide 7 something billion by 250.

million, that's a 30x return. >> All right. Should we transition to. analysis? >> Yes. So, one big thing I wanted to talk. about is why is Netflix buying this? Like, why is this particular asset and. this category of assets, Seinfeld, The. Office Friend, so valuable to a. streaming service? Well, streamers need. content to do two jobs. One is. acquisition and the other is retention.

>> Yep. These are awesome retention. vehicles. >> Yes. So acquisition. is a totally different thing. That's. what the new content is for. That's the. like super high polish thing you can. market to get people to sign up for your. service. And I think I'd be curious to. get feedback from people in the. entertainment industry. I think the. reason why every show is like eight. episodes now instead of 22 to 24 is. because in broadcast it was an ad-based.

business model. So, you needed something. on the air always and then you needed to. sell ads for 8 minutes of every half. hour. And so, you take 22, you'd take. 24, you'd take 30 episodes if someone. could make you 30 if it was a good show. because it suits your business model. On. streaming, the point of a new show is to. get people to sign up for your service. And I'd be willing to bet that there's.

not a big difference between a great. show with eight episodes and a great. show with 20 episodes. How likely it is. to get someone to sign up. And these. things are expensive now. It's, you. know, 8 $10 million per episode for some. of these high polish ones. There's no. way that the $10 million you spend on. the 14th episode of a season is. justified versus sinking it into the. sixth episode of another show that you. could do instead. Once you kind of like. wrap your mind around, oh, shows are now.

acquisition vehicles rather than ad. inventory carriers, you sort of. understand why shows are so different. now than they used to be. >> Yep. >> And the other thing, in addition to the. fact that these seasons are really. short, they're mostly not comedies. >> Yes. >> It's really weird. Like everything is a. drama or spectacle or a sci-fi. And and. I was really grappling like why don't we. see more Seinfelds now? Why are there so. few things that look like this?

Part of it is I think that comedy. doesn't travel internationally. and these businesses now, these. streaming businesses are all scale. economies businesses. So whatever you. make, you want to expose it to the. broadest number of people to justify its. cost. And so it's really hard to. greenlight something where like, you. know, British humor doesn't translate. when they brought BBC's The Office over. to the US, it bombed and they had to. completely remake the show in order to.

make it appeal to an American audience. So, I think that's part of why you get. White Lotuses, but you don't get. Seinfelds anymore. >> It might also be kind of as you see in. the Seinfeld story, when you you're just. doing comedy, it takes a while to get the audience. hooked. You can't just like hook. somebody right away with an incredible. drama or a flashy sci-fi or something. like that. Like it's a slow burn and. that just doesn't make sense in the. acquisition side of the business model.

for streamers, right? It's not even. obvious that I would sign up for a. streaming service to get access to a new. comedy. Like I watched Tires cuz I was. already a Netflix subscriber and it was. awesome. But would I have gone to sign. up for Netflix on my own just to watch. Tires? I would have needed a pretty. strong endorsement and people endorse. comedies differently than they endorse. dramas because you're like less to your. point sucked into the story. >> Y. >> now flipping over to the other side,

retention. That is Seinfeld's job these. days. It is like the single perfect. retention vehicle. I'm happy to. subscribe to a service where worst case. if I'm surfing around and I can't find. something, there's always Seinfeld. Ah, that sweet, warm Seinfeld. >> It's comfort food. >> Yes, exactly. >> It's really weird cuz it started as this. like jarring, crazy, daring show and now. it's comfort food. >> It's the chicken pot pie of Netflix.

>> and it's like a churn reducer in two. ways. One, maybe I signed up for K-pop. Demon Hunters. >> Yeah. >> And then I realized Seinfeld's on there. Okay. Well, actually, I got hooked on. Seinfeld and I'm gonna watch every. episode of that while I fall asleep at. night. So, that's like one thing. But. two, now that I know it's there, I'm. just not going to cancel. I don't want. to lose access to something that I think. I theoretically at any given time might. want and decide to watch. >> Yep. >> So, yeah, that that is why it's so.

valuable to streaming services. >> Incredible retention tool for streamers. So, while we are on the topic of the. weird incentives that fall out of. subscriptionbased streaming versus. advertising based TV networks, this is a. a bit of a brain buster. Tell me if you. agree with it or not. >> Okay. >> NBC's '9s advertising business model. incentivized attracting a more educated.

audience than streaming. Yep. I buy that. because advertisers are willing to pay. for audience demographics, whereas in. the streaming world, everybody pays the. same $12.99 or whatever it is a month. Doesn't matter who you are. >> Right. In the streaming world, you're. just a vehicle for your $12.99. >> Mhm. >> There are lots of counterarguments to. this that I'm open to, but it is sort of. a interesting brain puzzle that. streaming doesn't incentivize you to get.

the most valuable viewers. Well, you're. you're happy to take the highest quality. viewers. You just need viewers. You you. want differentiate. >> And you know, look, streaming is. historically subscription based, but. they're adding ad tiers now. Netflix is. adding an ad tier, >> right? And those advertisers will care. who the subscribers are. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, my my big question for you in. analysis before we get to powers in. quintessence, we opened the episode by. saying this couldn't happen again today.

that this was so anomalous it needed to. happen at the exact time that it. happened with the exact people who who. made it. I have a list of things that I. think couldn't happen today and I'm. curious your thoughts on them. [laughter]. >> Great. I've got a list too. You want to. trade back and forth? >> Yeah, let's do it. So, my first one, arguably the whole show it was so. creatorled with essentially no design by. committee. I bet that's pretty hard to. find today. Well, it's easy to find on.

YouTube or. >> yes. >> podcasts or you know creat. >> completely outside the system and it is. almost impossible to find inside the. system because the stakes are too high. now somebody executives at some. organization are involved whether it's. the streamer or the production company. or the studio right like the budgets are. so big that was my point about the. stakes are too high right like you want. to make a TV show these days you need a. lot of freaking money there's No way. that something could start like Seinfeld.

back in the day with that budget that. you know set of episodes, >> right? I think Always Sunny did, but. that's now 23 years old or something. Uh, Tires, I think did Tires was pretty. low budget when it started. >> and it was like creator led independent. So, yeah, I guess it can happen out. there, but by and large, you want to. make a TV show, you need a lot of money, which means you're going to have suits. weighing in on what's going on, >> which is just going to make everything. worse. those damn suits. [laughter]. >> Yep. >> All right. Next for you.

>> No doubt the. independent cap table and incentives. associated with Seinfeld made it what it. is today. the fact that Jerry and Larry. as creators got this incredible deal and. sort of set of circumstances that let. them get huge backend from the. production company and then they made. the show artistically what they wanted. but they were incentivized for the long. run always. >> Yes.

>> Made all the difference in the world. It. is probably impossible today to make a. TV show. that you in any way. make $500 million from. I mean, you can. make it in secondary ways. You can get. famous from the TV show and then pick up. sponsorships and get to invest in. companies and stuff like that, but to. truly own enough of a show's long-term. economics to make hundreds of millions. of dollars, I think that's over. that.

that would only exist in the creator. world like podcasts and YouTube and it. doesn't happen on TV. >> So the question is why? Because both. business models are totally viable. The. old media networks one where you're like. I don't want to own the long-term. upside. I just want to have profitable. business today or the one that the. Netflixes of the world are doing where. they do want to own all the long-term. upside. And follow me on this. I think. it's because the distribution that.

happens today is on tech companies at. their core, not on media networks, which. I think were capital constrained. Tech. companies are very very used to making. big investments upfront the way that you. would make in software. Y. >> with very high margins when you get to. scale, but obviously you're like way in. the hole for a while until you get to. scale. You know, Microsoft's a terrible. business with a 100 customers, but an. unbelievable business with a billion. customers. The modern media company.

wants to own all of that risk like a. tech company and pay for it upfront so. they can own all the rewards later in. the success case, which is the exact. opposite of the traditional media. business. >> Right. Right. >> Or the traditional networks business. >> You know what's interesting? I sort of. expected going into this research to. hear over and over that oh NBC realized. their great mistake in not owning any of. the back end of Seinfeld and they let so.

much value walk and it was this bitter. lesson that especially once Vincen was. repealed they never allowed something. like that to happen again. That's the. fact pattern but actually back in the. day the executives were fine with it. They were happy with the arrangement of. yeah totally you production companies. you're essentially the VCs you take the. risk you make money on the back end we. get this great stuff that we can put on. our network and. >> we have a one-year payback period on a. multiple of our invested capital. >> sell ad units we're super happy that.

works great. >> yeah I think it comes down to tech. companies are trained to seek operating. leverage and attract investors that want. operating leverage and that was not a. thing when media was distributed by. networks, but now that's the ultimate. end state of the media distributors. being tech companies. >> And back in the day, they were they were. the only game in town, right? Like you. were going to tune into NBC, ABC, or CBS. and then eventually Fox, too.

>> That was it. >> Yep. One other little piece of analysis. before we get to Seven Powers. There's a. very real argument here that Fininsson. being repealed is one of the worst. things to happen to the industry in the. last several decades. >> Yep. >> The networks start saying we're going to. pick from the in-house things that we've. sort of come up with to hit the. airwaves. It just means that you get bad. stuff out there. Whereas, if you have.

this like thriving free market of a. whole bunch of independently funded. small studios coming up with things and. you can buy from any of those, that's a much better world for content. >> Totally agree. And we heard that. universally in the research like, "Yep, those were the good days. Vincent being. repealed ended that.". >> Yep. And consolidated where content. could come from. >> Yep. >> Fortunately, the internet changed that. and we have, you know, the YouTube and. the explosion of creator diaspora now. Yep. Uh powers. This is actually going.

to be really fun. >> So let's see. Normally the way we do. this exercise is. seven powers are the seven things that. could give a company persistent. differential returns or the ability to. be more profitable than their nearest. competitor on a sustainable basis. Who's the entity here? The Seinfeld cap. table. >> Yeah, I think we should talk about it. from the cap table's perspective. And. it's what lets Seinfeld, the asset of.

the show, even when it was being. produced and today, be more valuable. than. >> anything that competes with it, other. shows. >> Yep. Yep. >> Okay. >> I think counterpositioning today might. be the biggest one because it's the last. of these huge retention tools left that. is not captively owned by a streamer. So, it can come to market in a way that. friends in the office can't. And you. think that's counterpositioning? >> Well, if you were to say friends in the.

office are its competitors, they are. structurally hamstrung, >> right, >> by their ownership situations. Now, >> if they did compete with Seinfeld to go. to the free market and be able to go. anywhere, it would hamstring their their. parent company, their. >> their parent companies would be making. value destructive decisions to do that. >> Yep. At least based on their chosen. current strategy of needing to have. owned and operated streaming services. Yep. >> Scale economies all all over the place. I mean, the fact that the world has an.

install base of 100 million plus. Seinfeld fans. >> Oh, uh, I agree. But I I would say this. is network economies, not scale. economies. >> Oh, that we're all. >> the fact that you know all the memes. from Seinfeld is extremely valuable to. me. >> You're right. don't think there's scale. economies because the definition of. scale economy is when. I can do something that is more. profitable to me for the same input than. one of my competitors can do because I.

have more scale but this asset doesn't. actually make any decisions or or or do. anything. >> Yeah. I mean like the only. >> Netflix has scale economies. When. Netflix decides to pay $500 million, it. can make better use of the Seinfeld. content and be more profitable on that. acquisition than smaller streaming. services. >> Yep. >> But yeah, branding. >> maybe. >> It depends what you consider branding, >> right? Is the whole tenor of the show. branding? Is it just the logo? Is the.

like I'd much rather watch Seinfeld than. Big Bang Theory, but that's not because. it's called Seinfeld and I trust. Seinfeld more. It's because I think the. intrinsic quality of the show is higher. >> Yep. Yeah. Uh I don't think there's any. switching costs here. >> No, >> can't even think of what that would be. in this case. Uh cornered resource. Obviously, they have the rights to. Seinfeld. >> And may maybe that is the power that. might it might just all be cornered. resource. >> Resource. >> We have a thing that we can sell that. other people can't sell and make a lot. of money on it. >> Yeah. And then the last one, process. power. Not today, but there was if you.

change this exercise to what did. Seinfeld have when it was being produced. that other shows didn't have, it's. absolutely process power in the way they. were making it. >> It's absolutely cornered to resource in. Jerry and Larry and some of the other. writers that they had too. >> I think there was process power clearly. just to the act of making the show. I. don't think Jerry or Larry individually.

or if they were to come together again. now could repeat it. It was a magic. moment. And in fact, the evidence is. right there in in Curb, right? Like. Larry had to run Curb differently than. Seinfeld. He he couldn't do again what. he did at Seinfeld. Kurb was improvd. Larry couldn't create the the scripts. and and all of the intense effort and. alchemy and magic that went into every. week of Seinfeld in the same way. You. just couldn't do it.

>> All right, should we bring this baby. home and do quintessence? >> Let's do it. I know where you're headed. >> So, listeners, the way that we decided. that we want to do our quintessence this. time is to answer the question, what. made Seinfeld such a ludicrously good TV. asset to own? >> Yep. >> What made it durable? what made it. continue to get renewed for these really. high rates three decades later and yes. there are comps in the office which. actually is my preferred thing to watch. all like nightly I grew up when it was.

on and so it's like more for me and it. feels more modern and blah blah blah. friends is arguably more valuable but is. held captive so Seinfeld is like the one. free agent in the top tier that actually. can go and trade on the free market. >> yeah and look of Of course, there's a. whole list of these, most of which we. talked about earlier in analysis, but uh. I think if you were to ask Jerry at. least, it went out on top. >> I think the driver.

is. viewership begets viewership. So, Seinfeld has been everywhere for the. last three decades on a bunch of. channels and streaming service. And. because it has been omniresent, there's so much demand today to watch it. because we're so familiar. It is today's. comfort food. Even though when it. launched it was very uncomfortable. >> I mean, during my childhood, teenage. years, college, adulthood, it was.

everywhere. And I have all the jokes. memorized. >> Mhm. Always on every channel every. night. Yep. >> It's passed from generation to. generation that way. I talked to my dad. about it. In fact, we were prepping for. this episode and my three-year-old son. is sitting on the couch with me because. we had the DVD on. We're watching He. [laughter] was putting the DVDs in the. DVD player and he goes, he points to the. screen. He goes, "Is that Jerry. Seinfeld?". >> I was like, "Oh my god, I just passed it. to another generation." And then we're. watching the DVD like uh interviews. afterwards and he points to the screen. He goes, "There there's Larry David.".

>> And I was like, "I am so proud of you. right now.". >> Wow. Good for him. >> I know, right? But it's this thing. My. parents liked it. I liked it. I like it. It's It's so in the water in our. society. There's a crazy stat from. Neielson in 2021. 41% of Seinfeld's then. current audience had either been. toddlers or not born yet when the series. ended in 1998. >> Amazing. >> So, you kind of have to just keep.

tracing it back. Like I I think you. might be right that it's because it went. out on top, but the reason in my opinion. is because. >> the 1995 and the 1998. syndication cycles were so successful. and exploded out of the gate. >> that it created this in the waterness. >> to Seinfeld. >> Yep. I I think I mean look at the end of. the day it's a stew of all of these. things but I don't know. I just think if.

they'd milked it for a few more years. and quality had gone downhill, this. thing is so hyper sensitive to the. aggregate cultural. assessment and impression of it. that if at the end it didn't have that. like greatest show of all time vibe in. the culture. >> Yeah. >> The engine wouldn't have continued like. this. >> Yeah, totally agree. We're and we're. saying very similar things here. It's.

it's ultimately that coupled with. quality. Like the the situational jokes. that they set up just don't feel dated. Even though a lot of these things could. be solved with a cell phone, but the. intrinsic quality of the situations they. are in. >> Yep. >> Still feels relevant today. >> Well, more than 20% of America agrees. with you. >> 22%. >> There you go. >> All right. Well, on this one, we've got. some fun trivia that we should include.

here that didn't make the episode. Number one, the theme music. >> Yes, that was mine. >> The baseline. I wish I had like amp. [laughter]. >> Ben, tell everybody why the theme music. is so distinctive. So in the pilot on my. DVD. that I have uh you can hear the original.

pilot with the original theme music. which is not what you are familiar with. the bass riff composed by Jonathan Wolf. It is something completely different and. it interferes horribly with Jerry's. standup at the beginning. you it just. like is tonally overlapping each other. and you you almost can't make out his. words. So when Jonathan Wolf got the. call about it, he said, "Oh, I know. exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going. to treat Jerry's voice like the lyrics.

of a song.". >> Yes. >> And I'm going to compose around that. like he's kind of carrying the melody. And he even felt like there was a tempo. that Jerry did stand up to and it came. in around 110 beats per minute that like. that's how his jokes were told in that. rhythm. So he didn't create a theme. song. He created a theme song system. where he could uniquely compose on a.

synthesizer in front of him that had the. bass guitar riff, you know, [snorts]. mapped to a bunch of different keys and. also all the little sounds like all the. mouth sounds that he makes. And he. uniquely composes. a theme for every episode that is. slightly different that fits in around. Jerry's jokes in the intro. And so he. has this great quote on this. Every. monologue was going to be a variation of. the theme. So, whatever I did, I needed. to architect it modularly so that it.

could be shiftable, changeable, like. Lego music. It needed to not conflict. with his voice. >> So great. >> So great. >> And so distinctive. I mean, it's part of. what makes the show. >> Yes. It's so different at the time, too. Of course, like everything else, the. network execs hated it because it wasn't. like anything else on the market. >> Of course, that's [laughter] a signal of. quality when the network executives hate. it. All right, that's number one. Number. two, this has come up unacquired before. Julia Louie Drifus.

is yes. from that Louis Drifus family. The uh. very large French uh commodities trading. family. >> Yeah. Big multigenerational business. has made an appearance before on. acquired in the Ferrari episode because. Julia's grandfather was one of Enzo. Ferrari's first clients and raced his. privatelyowned Ferrari 166 like you know. the first cars that Enzo made in Lemon.

at the uh you know beginning of Ferrari. >> Amazing. >> All right, that's number two. Uh number. three, NBC had a corporate relationship. with Nike. M. >> and so any of the stars of any NBC. sitcoms could just go to the Nike. warehouse in LA and get all the swag. [laughter] they wanted. So how do you. think Jerry Seinfeld started wearing. Nikes? >> Oh.

>> on Seinfeld episodes. >> freebies. >> But yeah, we talked about this on the. Nike episode that like you know they had. their athlete strategy and then they got. into entertainment and this was part of. it. Jerry Seinfeld was one of the first, you know, uh, or big, you know, parts of. Nike's, uh, get into entertainment. strategy. >> All right. >> All right. That's what I got for trivia. >> Carveouts. >> Carveouts. So, I decided for this one, appropriately enough, I got to just do. Seinfeld episode recommendations. >> Perfect. >> So, The Marine Biologist number one by.

far. It's It's just the most like. masterful piece of 22-minute episode. crafting I've ever seen. It's great. >> Couple deep cuts that I'm partial to. One, the jacket, which I already. mentioned, and two, the first Seinfeld. episode I ever watched. I vividly. remember this like it was yesterday. I. was 9 years old when this episode came. out. I saw it air live on TV. I had a. babysitter for the night. My parents. were out. I got to stay up late and I. had the TV on. It was the dinner party.

airing live, which is the episode with. the black and white cookie. I will. always always remember Jerry eats a. black and white cookie. He's talking to. Elaine. He's like, "Ela, the world needs. to look to the cookie. Racial harmony. here in the cookie. We what we can learn. from the black and white cookie." And. then in the end of the episode, he. throws up due to food poisoning from the. cookie. [laughter]. >> Oh, Jerry. >> Oh, Jerry. All right. What you got. >> for me? I have uh another Seinfeld.

related one. Everyone, if you have a. browser open right now, go to. seinfeld.visisualizingdata.com. There is the most insane web project. I've ever seen called the Seinfeld. Chronicles, an unnecessary data. exploration by Andy Kirk. This is a book. that it's a coffee table book that the. author then put online that is a full. data visualization.

of. a zillion different ways you could slice. and dice Seinfeld. What laughs happen. when in each episode? What do the. patterns look like? How do they acrue to. each character? It goes episode by. episode. The thing's 121 pages showing. when various characters got screen time. It walks through why he thinks the show. worked, uh, what makes it unique. But. the the most wild thing to note is it's. all handlabeled. So, it was him watching.

episodes on his couch with a spreadsheet. open granularly every 5 seconds pausing. and labeling who's on screen, who's. getting laughs. I mean, the whole thing. is. is astonishing that a human did this. manually before AI. >> Wow. So, I have the marine biologist up. right now. There are 23 scenes in the. marine biologist. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> There you go. Seinfeld in the internet. made for each other.

>> My second carveout is Bucks in Woodside. >> Oh, yeah. >> Incredible restaurant. David and I just. went there for a meeting this week and. uh I was reminded of just how special. that place is. especially if you like. Silicon Valley lore and ephemera and uh. I mean they've got an Apple 1 up on the. wall. They've got a signed Jensen. jacket, the first one he ever wore on. stage. It's like you just tour around. the place and get a history of uh of the. tech industry, which is very fun. >> It's like a uh Silicon Valley version of. uh Monk's Cafe, you might say.

>> Yes. And my last carveout is a company. called Tin Can. My son is obsessed with. it. He's three, but it's more for like. five to 12 year olds. It is a phone. It's a landline with no screen that uses. Wi-Fi that is built for kids so they can. call pre-programmed numbers and if they. need to call 911 or an emergency contact. or something. It stays, you know, plugged in in your house. It's like. exactly the type of phones that we had.

when we were kids and just got to call. other kids without all the smartphone. stuff. The weird koda to this one is. somehow I ended up being the first. investor in this company because it was. a completely different company first. It's like my last check when I was a. professional. >> network executive [laughter]. >> like it accidentally pivoted turned into. this company became this like massive. viral hit. They're on Good Morning. America. It's the face of this movement.

around great ways for kids to. communicate without screens and my son. is loving it. So, uh, forever I was just. sort of sitting on like at some point I. should carve out Tin Cam, but I don't. want to be like too self-promotional and. promote a company I invested in, but. this thing is just really fun watching. all these kids use it. >> Ah, so good. >> All right. Well, listeners, if you want. to listen to any other acquired. episodes, you can do so on Spotify or. Apple Podcasts. And we've got some thank. yous. >> Yes, we do. >> Thank you so much to our partners this.

season. Sierra Sierra helps the great. companies of the world build better, more human customer experiences. Sierra.ai/acquired. WorkOS. Start selling to enterprise. customers with just a few lines of code. and build authentication in minutes. instead of months. Workos.com to. Anthropic. Claude thought with me a lot. while I was researching this episode and. it can think a lot with you too. Claude.ai. AI/acquired. to Sentry application monitoring. software considered not bad by millions.

of developers. centry.io/acquired. You can click the link in the show notes. to learn more about any of the sources, the several dozen that Dave and I have. between us, the books that we read, especially Seinfeldia by Jennifer. Keshan. Yep. Great, great book. All of. that is linked in the show notes. And a. few people to thank in particular. Yes, David, what you got? >> Yes. research. Thank you as well. Speaking of books for the show, first. and foremost to Warren Littlefield, NBC.

executive, uh, responsible for the. decision to officially pick up Seinfeld. Warren spent a great amount of time with. us, which was wonderful. He also wrote a. fantastic oral history memoir of his. time at NBC called Top of the Rock, which is well worth reading about. Seinfeld, Friends, Mad About You, Cheers, all all the great stuff from NBC. from this era. Famously, right after. Seinfeld ended, Warren got fired at NBC. and went on to have an amazing second.

career as a producer. So, he executive. produced Fargo, uh, The Handmaid's Tale, Dopessick, and now The Testaments, which. is doing incredibly well. So, great to. talk to him. uh Alec Berg, Dave Mandel, and Jeff Schaefer, three of the writers. behind some of the most legendary. episodes on Seinfelm, especially the. second half of the show. Uh to Jeremy. Zimmer, former head of the UTA talent. agency, to Michael Linton, former. chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures.

Entertainment. To our friend Ravi Nandon. at A24, and Brian McAnnandrews, longtime. television executive, first at ABC. Capital Cities and then at Disney. and. to our friend Jeremy Jafon for helping. inspire this episode with his original. recommendation that I made a carve out. on our last episode of Jerry Seinfeld's. movie comedian. Thank you Jeremy. Uh. I've got a couple. One to Arvin. Navaratnam at Worldly Partners for his.

great minstudy this episode on Seinfeld. which is linked in the show notes. And. then also to good friend of the show. Danny Passman, an entertainment lawyer. who has spent his whole career around. deals in this industry. If you like this. episode, go check out other episodes on. TV and entertainment. Taylor Swift, Oprah way back in the day, more. recently, much higher quality episode. because we got better over time, Disney. part one and part two, and uh for a. tie-in on Coca-Cola.

>> That's right. >> You can visit library.acquire.fm. to get access to all the visuals. associated with this episode, charts, tables, and illustrations. You can join. the email list at acquire.fm/e. That's where we will send out. behindthe-scenes photos from research, episode corrections, and vote on future. episode topics. And come talk about this. episode [music] with us and the whole. community in Slack after you listen. acquired.fm/slack. With that, listeners, we'll see you next. time. >> We'll see you next time.

>> Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Who got. the truth? [music]. Huh? >> [music].