Mangione Episode 5: "The Gambit"

Hi, this is Brian Buckmeer here with the. final episode of Burn of Proof, Luigi. Manion. It's the last episode we'll be. sharing here, but if you want to follow. the trial and more legal coverage from. ABC News, you can check out the podcast. Burden of Proof Daily. Every Monday. through Friday, you'll hear the latest. coverage from ABC News on the trials. America can't stop talking about. You. might even hear my voice from time to. time. Find Bird Approved daily on Apple. podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your.

favorite podcast app. And remember, you. can listen to this podcast adree and. unlock access to so much more from 2020. by subscribing to 2020 True Crime Plus. on Apple Podcasts. Click the link in the. description to learn more. Now, here's. the final episode of Burden of Proof, Luigi Manion. So far on Burd of Proof, Luigi Manion, we've been filling you in on everything. that has unfolded since December 4th,

2024 when Brian Thompson was murdered on. a Manhattan sidewalk. We've talked about. the manhunt for the shooter, who Brian. Thompson was, who Luigia Manion is, and. why this case has captivated so much. attention. When we started the series, Manon's state trial for the murder of. Brian Thompson was supposed to begin. tomorrow, but so much has changed since. then. This is a case that has a lot of. moving pieces and just keeps evolving. In this episode, we're going to get into.

where things stand in Manon's case now. and how he got here. For that, we're. talking with ABC News's chief. investigative correspondent, Aaron. Kurski, who you've heard over this whole. series. He's been following this case. from the very start and has attended. many of Manion's court hearings. Aaron, as always, welcome back. It's uh. always a pleasure to have you. >> Good to be here, Brian. >> Let's start with what happened in. Manion's federal case. In that case, he.

was initially charged with murder. through the use of a firearm, a firearms. offense, and two counts of stalking. The. murder charge made him eligible for the. death penalty. But that and the firearms. offense were dismissed by a judge months. ago. The judge found that the. prosecution did not prove certain. elements of the crimes that carry the. death penalty. And when that happens, the charge gets dismissed. So when. Manion entered the courtroom in mid. August, he was only facing two counts of. stalking and he pled guilty to those.

You were in the courtroom. What else. happened during the plea hearing? The. most interesting thing that happened. other than Manion's guilty plea, Brian, was his own explanation of exactly what. he did because the judge needed to be. convinced that he was pleading guilty. because he is in fact guilty and wasn't. coerced or wasn't thinking that there. was some other motive for what went on. So, he ended up seated reading a. statement that occurred when when the.

judge asked him exactly what he did. Uh, and he said, "I shot Mr. Thompson,". meaning Brian Thompson, the CEO of. United Healthcare. And he said that he. had done so after he learned that United. Healthcare would be holding its annual. investor conference in New York in. December of 2024. He said he traveled. with the intent to shoot Brian Thompson. I shot Mr. Thompson in Manhattan, Manion. said, and he died.

>> How would you describe Manion as he. plead guilty? >> I would describe him as rather passive. There was no contrition. There was no. remorse. There was no particular. anguish. He didn't fall on the sword, so. to speak, Brian, but he matterof factly. said that he came to New York to kill. Brian Thompson and did it. And that was. it. Uh and and for the first time, we. saw Thompson's widow in court for a. proceeding. She was crying as all this. went on and had to be comforted by.

another relative who was seated next to. her. Uh the courtroom was hushed. Manion. just sat there in beige uh jail garb. But there was something matterof fact. about it. So if he felt any remorse or. if he felt any kind of contrition, it. did not show when he was delivering his. statement to the judge. >> And I would say that's pretty par for. the course when it comes to an initial. plea. There's a sentencing and that may. come forward in the way that he might.

talk about this now crime no longer. alleged and there's still the stay case. hanging over his head. But Aaron, as. you're in courtroom, what was the energy. like or I guess the vibe? >> There's always some anticipation when. Luigi Manion steps into the room. Many. people kind of lean forward or crane. their neck to get a good look at him. because he has become a defendant who's. the subject of of fascination. But there. were notably fewer of his supporters.

outside the courthouse. He had a few. rows of supporters who have showed up to. just about every hearing. But I was. struck that at this moment as he's. pleading guilty, as he's admitting that. he killed Brian Thompson, he was largely. alone there with his attorneys, but no. family members, very few supporters, and. Luigi Manion simply gave his statement. and then returned into the custody of. the US Marshalss. I think that for a lot.

of people this guilty plea was a. surprise. I mean, think about it, right? Just days before Manion's and attorneys. were in state court discussing matters. related to that trial. We were all. gearing up for a potential early. September trial in state court. You've. covered this case closely for nearly two. years. Were you surprised at all that a. plea was taken in federal court? >> I think it had to be taken, Brian. You. know, the evidence in the case, it was. overwhelming. Luigi Manion is on video.

killing someone, shooting him in the. back. It turns out there were. eyewitnesses to the crime, as. prosecutors mentioned in court prior to. the actual recitation of the guilty. plea. They had a lot of physical. evidence that connected Manion to the. crime, including the murder weapon. pulled from his backpack, notes that. prosecutors took to be a motive. All of. that was going to be brought to bear and. it exposed him to the potential of of a.

life sentence in a state prison in New. York. And that was something from the. outset that his attorneys had sought to. avoid. So by pleading guilty in federal. court, they're hoping for a a slightly. different outcome. They know he's going. to be incarcerated, but they perhaps. prefer incarceration in a federal prison. and maybe for not as long as life. >> For the record, I think everything you. said was absolutely correct, but just to.

be devil's advocate, cuz I I'm curious. as to what you think. There's a there's. a poet by the name of Sean Corey Carter. He used to say something about you. didn't pass the bar, but you know a. little bit. And I think I would put you. in that category, Aaron. Why not just go to trial and and hope. that a Manion fan or or someone who has. an axe to grind with the healthc care. insurance companies is on there and. you've get a a hung jury or you get uh. some jury nullification. Why not that. rather than the strategy you've just put.

forward? >> I think two reasons. one, the. evidentiary hearing that Judge Gregory. Caro presided over in state court. allowed most of the evidence to be put. before a jury. So, the the defense was. hoping to keep some statements that he. made to Pennsylvania corrections. officers, some items pulled from his. backpack upon arrest at the McDonald's. in Altuna, Pennsylvania. They wanted to. keep all of that out and they were. largely unsuccessful. And [music] I.

think the other thing, the idea of jury. nullification or or putting the health. care system on trial, [music] the judge. was keenly aware of that possibility. And you had to imagine that prosecutors. on jury selection would be well tuned to. any attempt to keep a questionable. panelist on the jury. that strategy in. the defense's view probably could not. succeed or at least they didn't want to.

take the risk. >> We've got to take a quick break and when. we come back we'll talk about where. things stand in Manion's state case. [music]. Right after Luigi Manion's federal plea. hearing, his attorneys filed a motion to. dismiss his state charges, including. seconddegree murder on double jeopardy. grounds. Double jeopardy is a. constitutional protection found in the.

Fifth Amendment. It protects people from. being prosecuted for the same crime. twice. It's very important to say crime. and not actions because that's the. distinction the law makes. Then every. state like with many criminal laws has. the ability to create further. protections that go beyond the federal. protections of double jeopardy. New York. being one of the more latigious states. because we have the Southern District of. New York and Eastern District of New. York where there are a lot of state and. federal overlap go a little bit further.

in their protections and they give. greater definitions as to why the state. and federal government cannot prosecute. you for the same crime twice. Here's. Luigi Manion's defense attorney, Karen. Freeman Agnifo, speaking about double. jeopardy at a press conference after. Manion's plea hearing. >> New York law does not permit a person to. be prosecuted and punished twice for the. exact same crime under a statute that. governs successive prosecutions.

It's also known as the double jeopardy. law. Today's guilty plea triggers this. statute and we just filed our motion in. state court explaining why the state. charges must be dismissed under New. York's double jeopardy protections. >> Aaron, as I read the New York State. double jeopardy law and the motion that. was filed by the defense of Luigi Man, I. zero in on about 15 words that I think. is going to come down to why the defense.

either wins or loses. is and I'm curious. as to what your response is. As I. understand that their strongest argument. is to say that the stalking resulting in. death in federal court and the murder. charged in the second degree in state. court are too similar and that's why. it's double jeopardy. The language in. the law is that the statutory provisions. defining such offenses are designated or. designed sorry to prevent very different. kinds of harm or evil. I could see the. state saying stalking and resulting in.

death and murder in the second degree. are two different evils and therefore. both jurisdictions have the right to. prosecute. But the defense is saying the. opposite. The defense is saying stalking. resulting in death and murder in the. second degree are the same type of evil. and therefore is double jeopardy. Where. do you think the judge falls on that. particular issue which I think is the. heart of the argument here? I think it. depends on whether the judge follows the. technical definitions of the law or.

whether he follows more the substance of. of the case because both cases the. defense has said rely on the same set of. facts. There are no differentiating. facts between the stalking resulting in. death and the murder case in in in the. state court. So if the judge believes. that it's largely the same case, he may. see a distinction without a difference. Even though, as you say, Brian, the.

Manhattan District Attorney's Office. would argue that these are two separate. harms, that the cases are meant to. address two separate things, the. stalking and the murder of Brian. Thompson. The Manhattan District. Attorney's Office put out a statement. after the defense filed their double. jeopardy motion, saying, quote, "While. federal sentencing is pending, we are. prepared to litigate the defense. motions." The Manhattan District. Attorney's Office remains committed to. seeking justice for Mr. Thompson and his. family. What have you heard from the.

Manhattan DA's perspective on this. double jeopardy argument from the. defense? The Manhattan DA's office knew. that the defense's best shot at a. quiddle was trying to put the whole. health care system on trial, was trying. to distract from the main actions which. are on video of Luigi Manion. And so. they were going to be aware of this. Uh, the Manhattan DA's office also was. mindful that a man is dead and a family.

is expecting justice and so they wanted. to push forward to make sure justice is. done on behalf of Brian Thompson's. family. Now, sources close to to the. Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin. Bragg, know that there's going to be a. calculation in that office. If the. sentence is stiff enough, the family may. not want to go through the pain of a. state trial and maybe they back off. The. DA's office, even though in that. statement expressed a desire to go. forward with a state trial, Brian, they.

well know that if there's a stiff. sentence, there just may not be a need. to put anyone through it. There's a. desire on the part of prosecutors to. never see Luigi Manion walking free. So, they're going to be tuned to the. sentencing hearing and Judge Garnett's. decision in the federal case before. deciding how hard to push for a trial on. the state side. >> When will we know what's going to come. next in this state case?

>> There are two important dates and they. both occur toward the end of the year. The first is an appearance before Judge. Gregory Caro where he will ostensibly. entertain the defense motion to dismiss. the state case and then the sentencing. hearing in the federal case for Luigi. Manion. And that's going to be key. because it will help prosecutors decide. how hard to push. And so both of those. dates are key and it may give us an.

understanding about the next steps for. Luigi Manion and whether he actually. goes on trial. And if he doesn't, Brian, as much as he has admitted. his guilt [music] now through his guilty. plea, it will be striking that he will. never be convicted of murder of Brian. Thompson. >> Right? Because what Manion pleaded. guilty [music] to is stalking in. connection with the murder of Brian. Thompson, not murder itself. That's what. he's charged with in the state case. In.

mid December, Manion will be back in. federal court to be sentenced for those. two counts of stalking. We'll talk about. what might happen there after a quick. break. [music]. This is what's called an open plea and. not a plea deal. And and just for those. who are not in the court system, a plea. deal is a deal. It's where the. prosecutors say, "Hey, we may reduce the. charges or you don't have to plead.

guilty to the most serious crime. You. can plead guilty to a less serious crime. and we can agree to a certain amount of. years in prison." But with an open plea, the defendant just pleads guilty to the. entire indictment or the entire charges. and then in essence turns to the judge. hoping for a good uh sentence or a good. deal. What can we take away from the. fact, Aaron, that this was not part of a. plea deal, but instead was an open plea. by Luigi Manion? >> There's no guarantee. what Manion's sentence is going to be,

and Judge Margaret Garnett will be the. ultimate decider, but there was nothing. promised. There is no particular. expectation. He could face up to life in. prison if in fact Judge Garnett decides. Although typically on on a stalking. case, a defendant might expect far less. than that. But this is a unique. circumstance because Manion said that he. came to New York with the intent to kill. Brian Thompson and then did it. He meant.

to kill and he did kill Brian Thompson. that day in December 2024. >> Yeah. And when it comes to the federal. system, we have what's called federal. sentencing guidelines. And from what I. understand, the defense has already. calculated or or guessed at what that. range would be. And from their filings, it's something like 24 to 30 years and 5. months is what they believe his range. may be. >> And that's the gambit here. That's why. the defense sought to plead out the.

federal case and do it first. The whole. hope is that not only will Manion serve. his time in a federal prison instead of. a state prison, it's generally thought. federal prison conditions may be a. little better, a little less violent, a. little less crowded than state prisons. The defense is also hoping to convince. the judge for something other than a. life sentence. If it's 20 to 30 years, even a little more than that, Manion. would still be eligible for release when.

he's a grown man, but still with some. life left in him. Uh and and that's. something that state prosecutors in. Manhattan are going to be watching very. closely because if it's anything other. than a severe sentence, you can bet the. Manhattan District Attorney's Office is. going to push to still put Manion on. trial in state court. >> What kind of influence, if any, could. state prosecutors have in the federal.

case, especially if the state charges. are dismissed? There's no real mechanism. for the Manhattan District Attorney's. Office to weigh in, but they could try. to send a letter to the judge. They. could try to discuss the case with their. federal counterparts to make sure their. views are reflected in whatever. statements the federal prosecutors make. during the sentencing hearing. There's. an interest that the Manhattan DA's. office has promised to pursue to to to.

make sure the federal judge Margaret. Garnett understands. where the DA's office is coming from and. and and why uh they felt like justice. needed to be served. Uh the the. assistant district attorney handling the. case, Joel Sidman, has said that he has. been in constant communication with. Brian Thompson's family and wants to. pursue justice on on their behalf. And. the DA's office has also said this was a.

murder on our street in our burrow. A. and they want to also send a message. that it's just not acceptable. So. there's there's also an interest there. that the Manhattan DA's office wants to. to make clear. And I think Brian, in in. no small way, the DA's office felt like. they did all the work. It's their. evidence along with the NYPD. The feds. just sort of snatched Manion upon his. rather cinematic return aboard a. helicopter to New York City. And and I.

not that they're looking for credit. necessarily, but they wanted their day. in court because they were confident. that the evidence they amassed would. have made a strong case. >> Looking now a little down the road to. December. We're talking sentencing in federal. court. What should we expect Manion's. federal sentencing hearing to be like? >> I think it should be like any sentencing. hearing in federal court. There will be. the opportunity for victims to be heard.

Who's the victim in this case? Well, we. know it's Brian Thompson. Does his. family want to make a statement? Does. the company that he worked for as chief. executive want to make a statement? Prosecutors will have a chance to argue. Defense attorneys will have a chance to. argue. and Manion himself will have the. chance to address the court and perhaps. in his own words explain why he deserves. a a a more lenient sentence. That's his. choice. He doesn't have to, but that.

would be his shot. And it would also. give him the chance, if he so chooses, Brian, to be a little bit more expansive. uh than he has been allowed to be in in. court, where he has asked very specific. questions and must give specific. answers. We've heard him give outbursts. on his arrest in court once he stood up. and talked about double jeopardy. Uh. this would be his chance if he feels. that he needs to make a statement about. the killing of Brian Thompson. It would.

be his chance to do so at sentencing. >> A couple of months ago, Manion's defense. attorney said they plan to use a. psychiatric defense in his state case. I. believe it's specifically the extreme. emotional disturbance defense. But we. saw them raise that potential. psychiatric defense and then later. withdraw it. >> Do you think there's a chance that. Manion's attorneys will bring up this. mental health or mental state argument. during the federal sentencing hearing? They could try and they could argue that.

that's a reason for for leniency here, but there are no psychiatric records in. evidence or on offer that would affirm. the defense notion of of Luigi Manion's. mental state. We don't know. Uh and and. if the case doesn't get to trial, we may. never know. But I think on on. sentencing, for sure, the defense may. try to bring that up. In practicing. myself in the Southern District of New. York and the Eastern District of New. York, I am pretty familiar with what the.

factors are that the judge is going to. consider. And some of the big ones in my. opinion could cut both ways and maybe. harm Manon more than help him. The judge. has to consider certain factors, right? The idea being that the sentence must be. sufficient but not greater than. necessary to comply with certain. purposes within federal law. You've got. to look at things like the nature and. circumstances of the offense and the. history and characteristics of the. defendant. So, how bad is the crime?

Does this person have a criminal record. or not? They also look at the. seriousness of the offense, the adequacy. to deter criminal conduct, so to stop. other people from committing this crime. in the future. They also look at the. ability to protect the public from. further crimes from this specific. defendant. And they also look at things. that I don't think apply to menia like. the need for educational or vocational. training or medical care or other. correctional treatment. But looking at. all those factors and looking at this. case and looking at the arguments, are.

you seeing anything that would give us. any indication as to what kind of. sentence man could get in federal court? >> Brian, it's as you know, impossible to. guess what a judge is going to do. But. in addition to all those factors, just. look at the series of events. This is. someone who admitted he traveled to New. York with the intent to kill somebody. and actually did it. I don't know a. judge in America who's going to take. that lightly. And then there's Manion. himself. This is a high school. validictorian, a son of privilege,

somebody with every opportunity to. travel the world. And what does he. choose to do? He chooses to travel to. New York with a gun and a silencer that. he made using a 3D printer. He put his. education, he put his privilege to work. to shoot somebody on the streets of. Manhattan. It may not bode well for Manion. I don't. see a world in which Judge Garnett goes.

easy on Luigi Manion. They're going to. do everything they can, the defense is, to try to convince her for a lenient. sentence to to perhaps offer his back. pain or his prolonged exposure to the. health insurance system even though. United Healthcare was not his provider. They could offer up a number of. potentially mitigating factors. But he. admitted that he intentionally killed. someone on the street in Manhattan. It. was a shocking crime that that shocked.

the city and there's an expectation that. prosecutors have that the judge is not. going to go easy on him. Aaron, from. December of 2024, we've been covering. this case, you more than anyone else I. know. So, reflecting back on everything. that you've covered related to the. murder of Brian Thompson. What stands. out to you the most about this story as. we approach what could be the end of a. saga that is the death of Brian Thompson.

and the case of Luigi Manion. >> It has to be the way the case is coming. to an end. Brian, all of the facts, all. of the evidence weigh against Luigi. Manion. You can put the health care. system on trial. You can blame your back. pain, but at the end of the day, you're. on video killing a guy. And yet his. defense did a job in perhaps helping him. avoid a a a life sentence in a state. prison. And so it will be left to others.

to decide whether. this is justice for Brian Thompson's. family or whether there's something more. to be desired here. uh and and whether. in [snorts] effect manion. did not fully go through the system as. intended. I think his lawyers did a job for him, right? I mean, I don't know. >> I mean, at the end of the day, he was. facing the death penalty and now we are. talking about does he get out within his.

lifetime or not? As a defense attorney, that's already a win in some sense. >> With those set of facts, absolutely. Well, Aaron, I always look forward to. these conversations on these podcasts. I. know it's hard to get you because you're. doing 20 things at once. So, again, thank you for joining us and for your. excellent reporting on this case [music]. and all cases that you cover. >> Thank you, Brian. Burn approved. Luigi Manion is a.

production of ABC Audio hosted by me, Brian [music] Buckmire. Produced by Vika. Arensson and Audrey Masttec. Our lead. producer is Camille Peterson. Edited by. Tracy Samson. Music by Evan Viola. Mixing by Bob Mallerie. Special thanks. to Katie Dendos, Sasha Aslanian, Michelle Margolus, Tanya Simpson, Josh. Margolan, Peter Harlamus, and Jared. Kovsky. Josh Cohan is our director of.

podcast programming. [music] Aean Mcniff. is our executive producer. Thanks for listening to Burden Approved. Luigi Manion. That's the end of this. podcast, but if you want to follow the. trial and more legal coverage from ABC. News, I recommend you check out the. podcast Burden Approved Daily. Every. Monday through Friday, you'll hear the. latest coverage on the trials America. can't stop talking about. You might even. hear my voice and errands from time to. time. Find Burden approved daily on. Apple [music] Podcast, Spotify, Amazon.

Music, or wherever you listen to. podcasts. Or listen adree [music]. on Apple Podcast when you subscribe to. 2020 True Crime Plus. [music].