Heist at the Louvre Episode 2: Hundred-Million-Dollar Questions

Hi, this is James Longman back with. another episode of the latest true crime. series from ABC audio and 2020 heist at. the Louv. Remember, you can listen to. the entire series ad free and access so. much more from 2020 on Apple Podcasts. when you subscribe to 2020 True Crime. Plus. Just click the link in the. description to start your free trial. today. Terms apply. And now, here's the. episode. There's something so spooky about being. in a place that's normally crowded with. people and finding it almost empty. You.

feel like a big kid doing something. you're not meant to. Are you hearing me? Okay. >> I'd heard about the heist hours after it. happened on the morning of October 19th, 2025. And I was soon on the train to. Paris. Now, you know a story is big when. you overhear conversations about it all. around you. I remember really clearly an. elderly couple near me on the train. discussing whether they thought it was. an inside job. When I arrived in Paris, the Lof was still closed to tourists, but I was allowed inside. It is.

extraordinary to be inside the lof that. is completely deserted, no visitors, and. that is the Apollo Gallery. A makeshift. barrier had been put over the gallery. doorway to [music] prevent anyone from. going in. And I can see right through. into the main area. It's a huge vaulted. gallery. Incredible guilted ceilings. They came in through the window at the. far end. >> At the time, we knew the basic outline. of the crime according to police. The.

window they entered through, the jewels. they stole, their getaway on motorbike. But exact details of what happened. inside that room, well, they wouldn't be. seen by the public until months after. the heist. That's when security footage. surfaced. video from inside the room. that morning in October. It had no sound. and only a couple of angles, but it. showed two people standing next to two. display cases. Each of them using an.

angle grinder and [music] cutting into. the glass. Both cut most of the way in. and then slammed their elbows and. shoulders into [music] the glass until. eventually it gave way. They were in. They grabbed the jewelry and stuffed it. into a [music] small pouch. The crime. took minutes. The repercussions [music]. would last a lot longer. Almost. immediately after the thieves left, the. investigation began. In the gallery and. the street outside, investigators looked.

for clues to track down the jewels and. the people who took them. We're going to. talk about what they found [music] at. that crime scene. But the scrutiny. didn't end there. attention focused on. the museum itself. >> New shocking revelations about the. security at the Louv [music] or lack. thereof, according to ABC News. >> In this episode, what that scrutiny. revealed, historical problems, [music]. visible vulnerabilities, and mistakes at. the most famous museum in the world.

From ABC Audio, this is Heist at the. Louv. Episode two, $100 million questions. Within days of the robbery, some in the. French media were calling it cascist. of the century. Tim Carpenter disagrees. >> In terms of a crime, there wasn't. anything super [snorts] sexy or unusual.

about this crime. It was just a brute. force attack. Tim is the former head of. the FBI's art crime unit. Since 2004, according to the FBI's own statistics, this unit has chased down over 20,000. pieces worth over a billion dollars. They found a Norman Rockwell painting. stolen from a private home in New Jersey. 50 years ago, thanks to an anonymous. tip. They tracked down a Monet looted by. the Nazis during World War II and that.

ended up in an auction in Texas in 2024. Now, a lot of people don't know that the. FBI has an art crime unit. In fact, when. he first joined the agency, Tim didn't. even know. So, imagine my surprise, you. know, when I learn about this team. And. of course, I'm jumping up and down and. kind of pushing everybody out of the. way. Like, you know, I want to be on. that that team and part of that program. >> The reason Tim was so excited about this. unit, long before he was an FBI agent,

he was a budding teenage artist. But. instead of going to art school, he. joined the military. And most of his. career, he was a bomb technician. >> People really had a hard time. reconciling, well, you got this guy. that's doing all this weapons of mass. destruction, explosives, and IED stuff, and then he's the art nerd [laughter]. over here on the side. >> Tim worked in the art crime unit for two. decades until he went into the private. sector a few years ago. Now he advises. museums on how to improve their security. systems. Tim says this wasn't the heist.

of the century. It was a smash and grab. >> You give them credit for doing their. homework and having a great plan, but. their execution was amateurish, right? So, they made some mistakes. And. frankly, they knew it. I I think as they. were leaving, you know, their. adrenaline's high. They're in a panic. They're trying to get out of their loop. I think as they got down the road, they. already knew that they had screwed up. We don't know what doubt filled the. minds of our thieves as they sped away.

into the Parisian streets or if they had. any doubts at all. What we do know is. that they left a lot of clues behind. them. Now, the ongoing investigation in Paris. is top secret. All the details of how. French police approached the case, they. might never be made public, but Tim says. he thinks he knows the first steps they. would have taken. He says immediately. there were signs that look promising for. investigators. [music].

The thieves had left items behind. Police said there was a walkie-talkie, a. blanket, a glove, a helmet, and a couple. of angle grinders. From those items and. the crime scene, investigators said they. were able to get 150 samples of DNA and. fingerprints. [music]. Now, they have likely been run through a. database similar to the Kodis system in. the US where DNA from convicted. criminals is stored. From that, investigators would be able to see if.

the thieves were previously known to. French police. But investigators aren't. just looking at physical evidence. The L. investigation looked closely at cell. tower data in those early days, too. If. he was running this investigation, Tim. said he'd be contacting every cell phone. tower operator in range of the L of that. day and asking for their data. >> Say we want to know every device that. connected to that tower in the last 72.

hours. That pulls, you might imagine. that's probably a pretty big list. And. then you just got to do investigative. work. Finding the data that came from. the thieves phones among the noise of. tens of thousands of L visitors is a bit. like finding a needle in a haystack. But. Tim says it's possible if you know how. to look. >> It's about establishing patterns. Which. of these devices have been in the Lou. multiple times in the last month? Okay. Which of those are staff? So, if I know. that the subjects, in this case, they.

came in on a scooter and I'm doing. camera coverage and all of these things, right? And I can maybe establish a line. of direction, it's a it's an onion. You. just start peeling the layers back. >> Finding out where the thieves came from. might reveal their identities, and. finding out where they went might reveal. where the jewels had gone. And in cases. like this, that's what Tim says he. really cares about. I would always tell. people like an art theft case, our. objective is probably not primarily not.

the arrest of the subject. We want to do that. We want to hold. people accountable and charge the. criminals. Uh but our primary concern in. a theft case is the safe recovery of the. artwork. And so in that way, it's a lot. like a kidnapping investigation. Investigators would have to follow the. clues to find the kidnappers. Then. they'd have to get them to talk to. reveal where the jewels had gone after. they left the Louv. And they would have.

to hope that they weren't too late. This. has been a lot of work for French. investigators, and they've been under a. lot of pressure to get to the jewels. before they're lost forever. Their. investigation, as we'll find out later, has got results. That DNA evidence led. investigators to some names, some. possible answers to the who of the. crime, and we'll get to that later. But. ultimately, there have been some. questions that they haven't been able to. answer. Questions about how this.

happened in the first place. As the. police investigation moved outwards from. the Louv, criticism turned inwards. Something had led the thieves to believe. [music] that they could successfully. steal from the most famous museum in the. world. And they were right. Investigators say that the jewels that. were stolen from the Louv in October. 2025 had an estimated worth of $100.

million. But curiously, they weren't the most. precious or most culturally valuable. ones in the Apollo gallery. >> There's a diamond that's called the. Regency diamond that's 140 karat that. was not stolen. >> This is Ela Shelino. She's the ex- Paris. bureau chief of the New York Times and. author of Adventures in the Louv. >> There's another diamond that's called. the sassi. That's 55 karat that was not. stolen. So what they did is they stole.

the post French revolutionary bling. bling showy jewels. Elaine says the. jewels that were stolen were less. historic and less famous than some of. the others in the room but still. impressive. One of the jewels that you. had was a diamond and emerald necklace. and earrings that Napoleon gave to his. second wife Marie Louise. So those. probably are the most historically.

important jewels because they had been. purchased by Napoleon Bonapart. >> The thieves also took a pearl and. diamond tiara that was once owned by. Empress Eugenie. >> She was the the wife of Napoleon III and. Ejeni was kind of like she was called. like the influencer of her day. And then. these other weird kind of jewels that. nobody ever paid any attention to like. the diamond and sapphire necklace and. earrings worn by Queen Hortense and.

Queen Mari Amaly. I have to tell you I. never even heard of Queen Hortense or. Queen Marie Amaly before the jewels were. stolen. But they had nice jewelry. These. pieces were encrusted with thousands of. diamonds, sapphires, and emeralds set in. gold and silver chains and crowns. and. they were stuffed into the thieves bags. as if they were worth nothing. The. thieves formula was simple but. effective. They smashed, grabbed, and. they got away. So, how could this have.

happened? Well, there's three previous. heists all involving the Louv that might. help explain. To get to these heists, we're going to have to dive into some. deep Louv history. The Louv was built in 1190 by Philip. Agugust. He was a king and he was one of. the great military strategists of his. time and he wanted to build a fortress. to protect the Sen against invaders. >> Elaine told me that all the kings of.

France that came after added little bits. to the building. An extension here, a. turret there. Louis the 14th built the. Apollo Gallery, his tribute to the Roman. sun god in the 1600s, which was ironic, says Elaine, because the building was. less than sunny. >> Well, first of all, it was always wet. cuz it's right near the sun, just like. your basement is always wet. It was. always damp, wet, cold, dark. So that's. why Louis the 14th decides to leave. Paris. He hated Paris. He hated. Parisians. Parisians hated him. He goes.

to Versailles. He builds Versailles and. he leaves the Louvre unfinished. So, it's an unfinished mess of a building. >> Some artists moved into the Louvre and. used the halls as workshops, but it. didn't really resemble the Louv today. until after the French Revolution. And. that brings us to heist number one in. Louv history. We'll call it the drunken. mistake. I have to confess, as an Englishman, when I heard the crown jewels of France.

had been stolen, I thought, "What crown. jewels? They had a revolution. whose. crown jewels. >> You're absolutely [music] right when you. say what crown jewels of France because. France has very few crown jewels. It had. a lot of crown jewels once once upon a. time. Uh but during the French. Revolution [music] in 1792 there was a. theft of a lot of the crown jewels. Back. then the jewels were stored near the. Louv in a royal storehouse. And one.

night during a period of violent unrest, some thieves broke in. >> for several nights. They drink, they. carouse, and they steal a lot of the. crown jewels. Most of the crown jewels, those crown jewels came back. But there. was one crown jewel that didn't come. back. It was called the French blue. It. was a very famous huge diamond that had. belonged to Louis the 14th. It ends up. being recut from like 70 carats [music]. down to 45 carats. It eventually gets. sold to a jeweler who donates it to the.

Smithsonian. >> If anyone's planning a trip [music] to. DC, you can still see this French crown. jewel in the Natural History Museum, except now it's called the Hope Diamond. [music] Now, >> I think that's an incredible story. You've got a French crown jewel that is. sitting in the preeeminent [music]. American Museum. >> The Hope Diamond isn't the only French. crown jewel that ended up in the US. After the revolution, the new Republic. of France wanted to sell a lot of the.

old royal jewelry. No kings, no need for. crown jewels. [music] They held an auction in 1887 and. many of the remaining jewels were sold. Over a third of them, in fact, to. Charles Tiffany, who in turn marketed. them to some very rich Americans. There's great pictures of some of these. Americans like wearing crowns and you. know at their parties and things you. know wearing I'm wearing the crown of. princess blah blah or queen blah blah. whatever.

>> So we're talking kind of great Gatsby. socialites with diamonds. >> I mean there was one woman she put like. a crown jewel necklace on her dog and. Charles Tiffany was smart. He like. wrapped all of the crown jewels in these. beautiful leather boxes with gold. writing saying the crown jewels of. France. A few years ago, Elaine found. out that Tiffany's still had some of. these crown jewels hidden away in a. warehouse in New Jersey. And I sweet. talked Tiffany's into taking the crown. jewels out of the storage facility and.

bringing them to their big headquarters. on Fifth Avenue. I actually touched the. crown jewels of France that belong to. Tiffany's right now. >> Goodness me. From from the head of a. French empress to a storage facility in. New Jersey. Yeah, that's brilliant. Elaine says that the Louv has been. trying to find these far-flung jewels. ever since they were sold off with some. success. Over the last 40 years, they've. managed to track a few of them down and. buy them back. But the journey of these.

jewels seemingly wasn't over just yet. Elaine says that some of them were in. the display cases raided in October. 2025. The same year that France held their. crown jewel auction 1887, the Louv began. to display the nation's remaining. collection in the Apollo gallery. They. showed the older, more valuable pieces. and the newer postrevolutionary ones. In. some ways, it was symbolic. The jewels.

belong to the people of France, not just. for the private enjoyment of a monarch. or emperor. By the early 20th century, the Louvre had fully transformed into a. museum for the people. Elaine says. everyone was invited in. >> Anybody could come into the Louvre, no. matter what your social standing was, as. long as you weren't drunk and didn't. bring your dog. >> The Louv was popular, but nowhere near. the tourist magnet it is today. And back. then, the Mona Lisa was just one.

painting hanging on the wall with many. others. Which brings us to heist number. two, the Italian job. In the summer of 1911, an ex-lov. employee, an Italian man called Vincenzo. Perujia, entered through the front door. of the museum. He hid in a closet until. the halls were quiet. Then he went to. the gallery where the Mona Lisa was. hung. With no one around, he grabbed the. Mona Lisa off the wall. He took her home. and concealed her in the false bottom of.

a trunk. >> He kept her hidden for a couple of years. and then when he tried to sell her, he. was caught and the Mona Lisa came back. to the Lou. >> If this theft hadn't happened, Elaine. says the Mona Lisa may never have. reached the fridge magnet, tote bag, pop. art status she has now. >> The story of the Mona Lisa became a. global story. In fact, if you can. believe it, the lead of the New York. Times the day after the theft was about. the theft of the Mona Lisa.

>> When he was later questioned about this. theft, Peru said he fell in love with. her. [music]. He wasn't the only one. While the Mona Lisa was missing, visitors came from all over the world to. stare at the empty patch of wall where. she used to hang. Ever since she. returned, the Louv Star and the Mona. Lisas have only gotten brighter decade. by decade. Even back in the 1980s, the. museum was struggling to cope with the.

growing number of tourists flooding. through the doors. I spoke to someone. who worked in the Lou back then, and he. said that they did a huge renovation. project, and that was meant to make it. fit for the future. According to the. museum, this grand design was meant to. manage 4 million visitors a year, but. little did they know that current. figures would be more than double that. number. The LV needs further renovation, but Elaine says to transform a castle. into a museum is one thing. To bring.

such a huge historic building into the. 21st century, that is a whole new. challenge. >> The Lou was and is a mess. You know, everything's leaking. You know, you go. to just about any room at the Louv and. there's there's leaks because it's old. plumbing. You know, you're dealing with. different centuries and different eras. and different plumbing. And it will cost. it will cost millions and millions of. dollars to put in the proper kind of. security. You have to go through five.

different offices in the French system. to be able to put an electrical wire. into or a hole into a medieval wall. >> [music]. >> Now, no one denies that the Louv has a. hard task ahead of it. It's not just a. building. It represents ideals, politics, national pride. Not to mention. the stakes of getting it wrong are huge. Deciding what parts to change and how. All of that takes real time. But soon,

what l of management did or didn't do to. protect the building and its treasures. wouldn't just be a history story. It. would become, as the French president. himself would call it, a national. embarrassment. One of the people I met in Paris to talk. about the law of heist was Alan Bower. >> I'm a professor of criminology. I'm kind. of a very special kind of professor. because I'm the one and only in France.

Alan first learned of the robbery when. an alert came through on his phone the. morning of October 19th. And what did. you feel in that moment? >> No surprise. >> Really? No. >> The reason the heist doesn't surprise. him, he says, is because he could see it. coming. He says the L has been dealing. with security problems for years. Other. people felt that way, too. As the French. government dealt with the shock that. something like this could even happen at. a national institution, they launched an.

inquiry into the museum security. They. found flaws that had been exploited by. the heisters. At a Senate hearing, the. inquiry committee pointed to the fact. that while there were security cameras. watching the exterior of the Apollo. gallery, they weren't actually equipped. with a high-tech system that you need to. detect and capture suspicious activity. And there weren't enough screens for. security staff to monitor the live feed. In fact, according to a national audit. report in 2024, only 39% of all the Lou.

galleries had any monitoring by security. cameras at all. >> There was like less camera around the. Louv than in the middle of a village on. the northern France. >> And there was worse. A Louv employee. told ABC News just after the heist that. one of the security passwords at the. museum was just one word, Louv. We did. ask the Louv about this and they said. that while the Louv was used as a. security password, they say they only.

used it once and that it was part of a. test. But there was another security. report that was mentioned by the state. inquiry and this is kind of mindblowing. That security report identified the. exact window that these thieves had. entered through as a possible target and. they did that back in 2019. Now that. window used to have bars on it, but in. the early 2000s they were removed and. the Louv says that's because that window.

was a key evacuation route if there was. a fire. At a state inquiry hearing, the. Senate committee chief said that in a. heist where the police arrived seconds. after the thieves left, those bars could. have made all the difference. Alas says. time and time again, L management has. prioritized the museum's accessibility. over its ability to protect itself. >> Security is a nightmare for them. It's. something they don't like. It's like we. we say it's a hot potato. What can I do.

with it? Can I give it to somebody else. as soon as possible and forget about it. because I want my museum to be the most. magnificent, the most visible, the most. open to everybody. The French Senate. Inquiry said that too. It just took the. L so long to upgrade their security that. their blind spots, well, they just had. too many of them and they were way too. visible. In December of 2025, the L. director at the time, Lawrence,

addressed the Senate committee with her. response. She said she was unaware of the earlier. security audit that highlighted the. vulnerability of the gallery window and. she promised that a metal grill would be. reinstalled before the end of the year. and she said that during her tenure as. Louv director, she'd been proactive in.

increasing the number of security. cameras. She also told the committee. that a master plan to improve museum. security had been in the works for years. and she said that a robust framework was. now in place. At the end of the hearing, the president of the inquiry committee. asked Dar, "Is there anything you. regret? Anything that could have been. done at the museum before the heist that. wasn't done?".

She said she wished the museum upgrades. had happened faster. [music]. The Senate inquiry focused on failings. at an executive level. But the former. head of the FBI art crime unit, Tim. Carpenter, says that as an investigator, you have to look at possible weak points. even lower down the chain. And he. wonders if the lure of heisters might. have had inside help.

>> If it's my case, I'm going to spend. considerable time looking at the staff. FBI statistics have been clear for. decades on this, right? The vast. majority, somewhere in the neighborhood. of about 80% of all museum thefts are. internal or have some internal. component. We're all guilty of it. Every. organization, every institution, every. person is guilty of misplaced trust. Even the FBI has hired the occasional.

spy, right? Every organization can fall. victim to misplaced trust. [music]. Museums do it frequently. Ela Shelino also had a concern that. internal information might have helped. the thieves. When she heard the details. of how they had accessed the display. cases, something rang a bell. She knew. someone who worked for the separ Pompier. firefighters who have a post inside the. Louv. >> I called up somebody I knew from the. firefighters and said, "Capan, can we.

have lunch and just talk about this?". And he said, "Sure, blah blah blah." So, the two of us are having lunch and I. said, "How in the world did the thieves. get into these cases?" And he said, "Well, it was easy." And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" And he said, "Well, the cases have to be strong enough to. withstand a hatchet or something thrown. at it, like a stone or a hammer, but. they have to be easy enough for us to. get into them to protect an object.

against fire, fraud, or terrorism. Elaine asked him what tool the. firefighters are supposed to use to get. into the cases. A discurs, he said. An. angle grinder. And I said, "Really?". That's the exact same tool that was used. by the thieves. Not only that, but the. firefighters manual contains detailed. instructions on exactly how to cut into. the display cases quickly. And I said, "Is your manual unclassified?" He said,

"Yes." I said, "Can I have a copy of. your manual?" He said, "Sure." So he. sends me a copy of the manual and there. are all the tools listed and there's the. discus and it says eicas which means. efficient fil easy to use battery. operated and it's all right there. [music]. Now, we have to make clear there has. been no report of firefighters helping. [music] the thieves carry out their. crime. And we haven't seen any evidence. that the thieves had access to this. manual, and the prosecutor who's in.

charge of the case has [music] publicly. stated, they saw no evidence that it was. an inside job. In fact, as a French. government minister put it a few days. after the incident, [music] it wouldn't. have been difficult for someone to work. out for themselves that an angle grinder. would make short work of a glass case. But the point is, while initially you. might be surprised that thieves were. able to break into such a prestigious. building, actually with just a little. knowledge of the museum's inner. workings, it wouldn't [music] have been. as difficult as you might think. Which.

is perhaps why the public outcry that. followed the heist [music] felt to me at. least like it wasn't all about the. jewels. The act of theft, I guess, has. now has hit has struck a chord with. French people. I mean it less maybe. about what was taken and more the fact. that it was done. >> to the Lou. >> Oh 100%. I mean the the cultural impact. of the theft is extraordinary. I mean uh. I mean President Mong called it an. attack on our heritage and an attack on. our history. And if you put it into.

context. there have been two national crises. involving cultural institutions of. France in in recent years. One was the. fire of Notradam in 2019. and the second one was the theft of the. crown jewels last October. With. Notradam, you had not only a national sense of. tragedy and mourning, but it was. universal. I mean, around the world,

people wept. What was different is that. no one was to blame for the fire in. Notradam. You don't have footage of. arsonists going into Notradam and. setting the edifice on fire. Um where. with the Louv you you do have footage, you know how it happened. You know that. there was a problem with security. It. was all revealed. There were official. reports that said there were lapses in. security for years. And that's why it. became a national humiliation.

Now, we asked the L to comment on some. of the things we found out in the course. of our reporting, and they have. addressed a few points. First of all, they say that bars have now been put. back on the Apollo gallery window. They. were put back on a few months after the. heist. And they wanted to point out that. the glass in the Crown Jewels display. cases had actually been replaced before. the heist with even thicker glass than. had been recommended by one of the. security reports, and they say they take. public safety seriously.

Still, the Senate committee concluded. that the failings at the Louv were an. accumulation of deficiencies. And months. later, after a string of additional. controversies, the Louv director Law Dar. resigned. So, I guess what I've come to understand. is that in some ways this was just a. smash and grab, but it did require a. specific set of circumstances to all. come together in one moment. There was a. museum overflowing with visitors in.

desperate need of an upgrade. A gallery. with security blind spots that have been. ignored or were unknown by management. And the jewels known for their. incredible beauty dripping with. diamonds, but all stored in a room. without bars on the windows. And of. course, on top of all that, Alan Bower. says there was an extra special. ingredient. So, they had luck. By the. way, they had luck. Luck is a part of. the game. The thieves didn't have to be slick.

professionals to carry out this heist. They just needed the right conditions, and they seem to have them. What happens. next? Because a thief who got lucky now. has $100 million worth of jewelry to get. rid of. [music]. I said there were three old Lou heists. that help us understand this case. This. last one helps to explain the situation. our thieves might have found themselves. in as they sped away on those. motorbikes. [music].

We'll call heist number three hot. property. >> I have brought with me an article that I. wrote about what happened in December. 1976. >> This heist took place in the freezing. early hours of the morning. >> Three mass burglars break into the Lou. at dawn. [music] They climb up a. cleaning crew scaffolding. So, it's kind. of similar to what happened with the. theft last October. They smash the. unbard windows. They club two guards.

They break a glass showcase. And they. grab [music] a diamondstudded sword that. had belonged to Charles I 10th. [music]. The sword was taken from the same room. as our 2025 heist, the Apollo Gallery. And just like our jewels, after it left. the building, it disappeared. >> Entered, took the sword, and left. Bye-bye. Somebody maybe one day will be. nice enough to give it back or something. will happen and police or firemen.

discover a fake wall and we'll find it. back. The sword was 3 ft long and. covered with diamonds. Not exactly. something you could take to your local. porn shop. The [music] thieves back then. would likely have had the same problem. the thieves do today. Finding a place to. put it. This brings us to the question at the. heart of this entire investigation. Where are the jewels? That sword has never been recovered and. no one has ever been convicted of.

stealing it. But that's where that story. and ours might differ a little bit. because the DNA from the crime scene had. led investigators to a break in the. case. [music]. Within weeks of the heist, I heard the. news. Police had made arrests of not one. suspected thief, but four made. So, police now have, they believe, the. fourth of the four suspected robbers. [music]. in custody. And. >> with arrest made, I went back to Paris.

to find out who these suspected thieves. were and what they had to say. And as it. turns out, they have very different. stories, even from each other, [music]. about the day of the heist. My client. contest to have been at the Lou this. day. >> Oh, he says he wasn't even there. >> No, not at the Lou. And in the next. episode, we start digging for answers. [music].

>> [music]. >> Heist at the Louv is a production of ABC. audio hosted by me, James Longman. Produced by Meline Wood, Emily Schutz, and Aisha Elamar Castano, edited by Nora. Richie. Our supervising producer is. Susie Louu. Mixing by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Katie Dendas, John. Capidonus, Indra Dele Sahan, Iman Veroa, Michelle Margulus, and Suzanne Danto. Josh Kohhan is our director of podcast.

programming. Aean Mcniff is our. executive producer. [music].