Sen. Thom Tillis: The 60 Minutes Interview

Is it possible to be an effective. Republican senator in the age of Donald. Trump? Someone who makes deals and. checks the White House without becoming. a political martyr or an ex Republican. This is the tightroppe that Tom Tillis, the senior senator from North Carolina, has been walking for the last two years. He votes like a reliable Republican. while talking and maneuvering like a. maverick. He's a costic critic of many. administration officials, all while.

insisting he just wants to help the. president succeed. It's been a. fascinating performance. But now, Tillis. is heading for the exits at the spritly. for a senator age of 66 after crossing. the White House one too many times. As. his party faces a potential midterm. wipeout, we talked to him about his. highwire act, his relationship with. President Trump, and whether it's. possible to make the Senate great again. Around here, if you're in motion, you're. generally ahead. And if you're not, then.

you're behind. >> The key here, >> keeping up with Tom Tillis on Capitol. Hill is not for the faint of heart. >> He knows the US capital inside out. the. passageways, staircases, the capital subway system, and miles of. underground corridors that connect. senators offices to the capital itself. When reporters manage to interpose. themselves, they know they can rely on. Tillis for a sound bite.

>> Do you think that senators even. understand AI? >> No, a lot of them can't spell it. They. uh they just don't have the experience. Sometimes those sound bites reflect his. beefs with the White House. An. escalating series of fights that. culminated when Tillis announced he was. voting no on the one big beautiful bill. >> So what do I tell. >> arguing it would push too many lowincome. North Carolinians off Medicaid. In. response, the president called Tillis a. talker and complainer, not a doer.

>> I respect the president. I still feel. like we have an odd relationship where. I've clearly made him angry. But it took. years before he even made the first. negative comment about me. But I react. to anybody on this earth the same way. If you come at me with. with what I think is unfair or incorrect. data, I'm going to come back after you. >> The president threatened to find a. primary challenger to run against. Tillis. The senator announced that he. would be retiring. Instead of fighting.

for his seat, Tillis has written an. unfiltered profanity laced book. The. title sounds like it's taking aim at. President Trump. >> It's a little take on Dale Carnegie, but. it's How to Lose Friends and Antagonize. Presidents. >> Any presidents in particular? >> Well, I mean, the more recent one, but I. did a good job of antagonizing Biden and. a little bit with Obama back in the day. >> But the cover doesn't feature President. Trump. Instead, it features unflattering. photos of some of Tillis' least favorite. administration officials. It should be.

noted that he voted to confirm all of. Trump's cabinet nominees, including. Secretary of Defense Pete Hgsathth, a. vote he now calls his biggest regret. >> Do you hold him responsible for the. struggle in the Iran war? >> Because you've said that you supported. the initial decision. >> I'm glad the president went out. You. know, I think that they got so caught up. after the immense success of the first. strike that Heg Seth probably didn't. listen to his best military advice and.

say, "Now we should probably move to a. different posture.". >> He's calling for Hegsth to resign. It's. not the first time he's gone after big. game in Trump's cabinet. >> That is stonewalling. Earlier this year, he helped speed Christy Gnome's. departure when the deportation campaign. in Minneapolis led to the deaths of two. American citizens, Renee Good and Alex. Prey, at the hands of federal agents. >> The fact that you can't admit to a. mistake, which looks like under.

investigation, is going to prove that. Miss Good and Mr. Prey probably should. not have been shot in the face and in. the back. >> I'm not very often that angry, but when. I'm angry, I believe there's a reason. behind it and people should listen. What. were you thinking then? What had gone. wrong with her tenure? >> I was thinking about the $200 million. that the Department of Homeland Security. was spending on an ad campaign with her. riding a horse. I was thinking about her. calling people that were shot. potentially domestic terrorists. That's.

proven not to be true. >> Why do you think the president picked. her? >> I think there are some people that are. in the cabinet because to use the. president's term, they're right out of. central casting. I think Nome and Hexath. are probably the poster children for men. and women who should never have the. authority they've been granted. >> This is the Tillis tightroppe walk. Talk. about how much you want President Trump. to succeed while heaping blame on his. advisers and subordinates. >> The problem I have with some of the. people on the front page of that book.

and a few others is that they're not. looking around corners for him. Most of. the issues that we're dealing with here. have less to do with what he wanted to. accomplish, but how he went about it. >> The president and the senator were. reared in very different circumstances. Born in 1960 in Jacksonville, Florida, Tillis was one of six kids. He grew up. all over the South, moving nearly every. year. His father's itinerant life kept. the family, in his words, on the.

economic bubble. Depending upon the circumstances, we. were either in a house that we rented, sometimes we owned it, and when things. got really spicy, we uh were in a. trailer park. >> Do you think that your background I. don't know, does it make you different. from your colleagues? >> You know what? I tell you what, it's why. I probably react so quickly to this. concept of we don't have an. affordability problem. You always have. an affordability problem. There's some. segment of our society that always does. But denying it by definition means you.

don't recognize the problem. If you. don't recognize it, you're not solving. it. >> Constitutionally, >> it's those breadandbut issues that now. threaten Republicans with, in his words, an electoral bloodbath in the midterms. But many of his colleagues are still. afraid to break with the White House. You say in the book that at least 30 of. your Republican colleagues in the Senate. expressed reservations about many of the. president's actions in private. Why. can't in cases like Hegath those 30 turn.

into five votes against confirmation. that gets you a different secretary of. defense? >> Okay, there are some that just really do. not want to. >> they don't want to put their. >> they don't want to bear the weight of. the president. I get that. You're up for. reelection. He'll target you in a. primary. Um and so look, you know what. all martyrs have in common? They're. dead. There were probably a few. instances where if we kind of ripped the. band-aid off early, then I think we'd.

have had a lot better midterm. environment than we're confronted with. now. >> Tillis was first elected to the Senate. in the 2014 midterms, just before Trump. and MAGA took over the GOP. >> What kind of conservative were you at. that moment? >> The same conservative I am today. Uh. pro- second amendment, pro-life, limited. government, uh fiscal restraint. Uh, the. only difference between me and a lot of. people that call themselves true. conservatives is I got a long list of.

things that were ratified and they. don't. >> Tillis's mentor in the Senate was Mitch. McConnell. He even named his dog Little. Mitch. He was a quick study of. parliamentary procedure, vote counting, and calculated risk-taking. >> If they leave, >> at 66, he seems as fit as anyone on the. hill and as competitive, as we found. out, waiting by the Senate subway. tracks. You think you can jump and. clear? >> I think so. I think I could. >> You want to do it? >> I'm not in your kind of sh I mean, look. at look at. >> if you could make it.

>> All right. >> Uh, if you can't. Oh, okay. >> Oh my gosh. >> There was no way he could resist. >> 66. >> In the second Trump administration, though, there's been too little. legislative work for an energetic. senator. Every recent White House, Tillis complains, has been eager to. govern by executive order, but Trump 2.0. has been especially imperial. What don't.

they understand about the Senate and. Congress? >> That we're a co-equal branch and they're. at our best when they treat us like a. peer. >> But this runs both ways, right? That. they're more likely to treat you as a. co-equal branch if you act like a. co-equal branch. Do you think the. Republican Senate in Trump 2.0 0 has. acted like a co-equal branch. >> I think in some cases, yes, in most. cases, no. And I would say the same. thing for a Democratcontrolled Senate. under Biden and Obama. >> Look, we always make the mistake when.

our guys in office of conveying power to. the White House. And I've had a real. problem with that because it almost. always comes back to bite you. >> Another thing that's come back to bite. Republican senators repeatedly is the. president's own words. the same time. >> As much as Tillis trains his fire on. Trump's advisers, he also acknowledges. what he calls Trump's WTF moments, threatening to seize Greenland, casting. himself as Jesus or Easter musings about.

annihilating Iran. >> I think he said, "Open the straight.". >> Were you worried that we were going to. start carpet bombing Iranian civilians? >> No. And I've told the president this. before. I think you really need to. understand the weight of your words and. how literally people take you. >> But how do you tell the difference. between what people are supposed to take. literally and what they aren't? >> You know, I I'd like to think that most. of the time the president would be. surrounded with people who would finally. say, "Mr. President, if you do that, I'm.

walking out this door." There's a. Russian expression, if only thesar knew, which means people don't want to blame. the Zar when bad things happen. They. want to blame his adviserss. But in this. case with Trump, it's on him, right? In. the end, whoever he has around him, he's. thesar. >> Truman famously said that the buck stops. here. Get. >> a good line. >> I get that. Um, but Truman had great. adviserss. The Tillis Balancing Act.

extends to the events of January 6, 2021. He's still angry in a way that. stands out among his Republican. colleagues. >> Look, this was the first time in the. history of this country that we had not. had a completely peaceful transfer of. power on that day. And that was. despicable. The people that led the. charge, the people that assaulted police. officers, I wish they were still in. prison and serving a very long sentence.

>> But they were there for the president. >> Yeah, I think so. I found it disgusting. >> But he wasn't disgusted enough to. convict Trump in the impeachment trial. He says it was because the process was. rushed and uncenatorial. >> I read your book and one of your themes. was that senators need leverage. This. was a moment when you as a Republican. senator and your colleagues, you had all. the leverage over him. You had the power. to make sure he wasn't president again. >> What you're doing is a a means justifies.

the end rationalization. So cheapening. the impeachment process to prevent. somebody from running in the future, I. just don't buy it. >> We're about to have a midterm election. Do you have any concerns about how this. same president who you've been. condemning for January 6 will react if. Republicans have a bad night in the. midterms? >> I think there's a risk. I really do. It. would be another political unforced. error if we do that. >> I found actually inspiration. Earlier. this year, Tillis used his parliamentary.

skills to circumvent the speaker of the. house and get a long promised plaque. installed honoring the capital police. and other officers for protecting. Congress that day. It's mounted by the. door that presidents take to deliver. their inaugural addresses and hand over. power. As we made our way out onto that. terrace, Tillis told us he hopes the. plaque will be a reminder and a warning, even if the current president seems. unchased. You talk a lot in your book.

about the risks of authoritarianism. What are you worried about? >> The executive branch with its outsized. influence threatening people in. primaries basically degrading their. independence or eliminating it all. together. Then we become a a one. institution. country which is exactly what we fought. a revolutionary war over. I mean we will. have a sort of dictator king if we're. not careful. It seems like there's a. step change where presidents just ignore. Congress or don't even try and get.

things passed. >> And all we've seen over the the last. four administrations is a constant. escalation. I want checks and balances. I want all three branches to have their. individual role and continue to check. power as they have for 250 years. And I. think because we've been such a. successful democracy for so long, it's. hard for the American people to. understand how quickly we could lose it. all.