Extended Interview: Sacha Baron Cohen

Okay, I want to start by going back to. two moments early on. Seeing Monty. Python's The Life of Brian and Inspector. Clouseau in The Pink Panther. Tell me. how old you were when you saw. The Pink Panther and what you thought. about it. >> Pink Panther, I think. I think I was about nine. And I thought it was absolutely. hilarious. And I mean Sellers is still my favorite. comedian. >> Of all time? >> Yes. Yeah. Because [clears throat] he. completely inhabited the character.

>> Uh-huh. >> And it's laugh-out-loud funny. And they are silly voices. >> Yes. >> You know, my stuff, when you boil it. down. and I'll try and sound very pretentious. later on, it's me doing silly voices. >> When you see Dr. Strangelove or you see. Clouseau, Sellers is gone. He's subsumed by the. character. And I feel that way watching. Bruno or Ali G or Borat. I feel like. you're. not there. Do you feel like you bring.

any element of of your actual self to. some of the characters? >> If I knew who I was, then I could answer. that. But I don't know. I mean, Ali G. definitely because. in a way, at the age of. 11, I was a an Ali G of sorts. >> How does. a Jewish kid, you know, living a nice life, think, "Okay, I'm going to bring my linoleum to. Covent Garden and I am going to be. breakdancing. My mom is going to take me. and I am How does that evolve?

>> Uh, very simply, I basically. I remember it. I saw one night on TV, I. saw somebody doing the robot. It was two robots called Tick and Talk. And I thought that's amazing. And so I. started doing it. And then I started hearing music. There. were. It was the beginning of hip hop. It was. pre-hip hop. It was electro. And it was. the start of this new exciting movement. that was a lot more interesting than my.

actual life, and so I became obsessed by. it. And so I would learn it. I had a few. friends. >> Mhm. And they were into it, too? >> And that's what we would do. We would go. to the um. classroom with the slipperiest floor, >> [laughter]. >> and we would, you know, teach ourselves. how to break and pop. And then on the. weekends, I would perform and go to. Covent Garden and try to make money. doing that. >> Uh-huh. And what was your what was your home. life like? Your your mom was a fitness. teacher?

>> Yes. >> Your dad was a a magazine editor turned. accountant. Were they funny? >> Yes. Not both intentionally. My dad was. an incredible wit. >> Uh-huh. >> And an amazing intellectual and very. courageous. He was the kind of wit where every. single sentence was funny. >> Uh-huh. >> And he would enjoy sparring with certain. other witty people in the community, but. where it would be literally a battle of. wits. So, every line is a joke.

And. also very serious, very intellectual, very political. And my mom was. hilarious, but probably not. intentionally so. >> Like, can you give me an example? >> Well, she has a voice like this. Sorry if you're watching this. Um and she had such a. distinct voice that everyone in my high. school could imitate it. So, everyone. would go, "Sacha, telephone.". Because that's what she would say when. people would call me. She's a.

larger-than-life character. I mean, she's unintentionally hilarious and. sometimes intentionally hilarious. There. elements of. Borat. in that she will say whatever is on her. mind. >> Because you see that same kind of Borat. like that winsome, you know, she. couldn't she wouldn't harm anyone. intentionally, kind of feeling? >> Yes-ish. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Wild, amazing character, full of love.

And, you know, I grew up in. a house full of love and. where we were. all told that we could be whatever we. wanted to be. >> So, tell me about seeing Life of Brian. Tell me, what does Monty Python do when. you first see them? What does that do to. you? >> Okay, so I believe it was an 18. And I. think I was six, seven, eight. My. brothers brought me into a cinema, and. it was the first time that I'd been in.

this communal experience of hundreds of. people laughing and screaming in shock. And I think, you know, I do I'm really. not self-aware at all. And I probably. should get some therapy before I do one. of these again. But, I think in some ways my career is trying. to replicate that experience of just. being in a. theater with hundreds of people. screaming with laughter. >> Mhm. >> I didn't really understand the satire at.

the time, but. I loved the experience, and I think. that might be why I'm so obsessed with. trying to get the audience to laugh as. hard as they can. And I'm really, really. obsessive about that. >> How was the entertainment at your bar. mitzvah? >> Uh the entertainment at my bar mitzvah. was me. So, I and my breakdancing partner.

just basically danced. And then my. middle brother did the music. He's a. musician. >> Mhm. >> So, that was that. >> He went on to study history at Cambridge. University, where Baron Cohen discovered. the stage. >> I realized I loved making people laugh, but I also really like making them cry. Um on stage. I love to make. >> people the full emotional journey. >> give them their but yeah, bang for their. buck. I really do. I do. >> And how do your parents react when you. finished Cambridge and you say I think I. want to be a actor?

>> They thought it was a ridiculous idea. It was just an impossibility. They were. right. They were actually correct. >> Well, no. >> Well, it was so it would have been. irresponsible for them to support me. >> Huh. >> Because the likelihood of success was. seemed impossible. So, I gave myself 5. years to. make it. What do I mean by make it? To. have enough money to. live basically, you know, so I wasn't. trying to become famous. I got 5 years.

to make it. >> And you decide to devote some of those 5. years to go into the Harvard of Clown. Schools with the famous clown teacher. >> Yes. >> Tell us about him. Tell us about what. you learned there. >> So, I'm in Cambridge. and a guy comes back called Rick Warden. I remember this now. Brilliant actor. And he says, I've just done this course. It's amazing. There's this guy called. Philippe Gaulier. And this this thing. called clown and they put on a red nose.

and you just pretend to be an idiot and. it's incredible. His idea of clown was. the stupidest. creature that can ever be on stage. He. used to say more stupid than this and. you die. Uh sorry for the cultural appropriation, the French accent. >> And what did you learn? >> Everything. Everything. He was my mentor. Firstly, he gave me the confidence to carry on. because he would sit down with everyone. at the end and he said,

you can do anything. And a lot of the. people he would tell them forget it. >> You can do nothing. >> Yeah, you could do nothing. It was. brutal in that you'd have people flying. from Australia. They'd come and he'd say. they would come on and he'd play this. clown music with sort of the accordions. and stop and they would have to make him. laugh. If they didn't make him laugh, he'd hit. a drum and he'd go sit. And. I wouldn't sit and I'd stay up. Sometimes for and he'd let me stay up. there sometimes for.

10 minutes, 20 minutes, an hour. >> Mhm. >> People were very resentful. >> Mhm. >> But it was me experimenting being a. clown. >> Mhm. >> And. uh it transformed everything. >> I've heard you say that you knew Ali G. needed this whiff of ethnicity because. then if he was just breathtakingly. stupid there was this possibility that. people would chalk it up to him being a. member of the uneducated ethnic masses. Is that about accurate?

>> Well, Ali G is. a white. imbecile. He's a cultural appropriator. Um he steals. his language and his dress. from his favorite music stars. So, Tupac. Shakur, that's why he does West Side. And you know, the Jamaican patois is. from Jamaican dancehall stars that he's. listening to. But so his full name is Alistair Leslie. Graham.

But yes, shortening him to Ali, there. was the. assumption that these members of the. predominantly white establishment, they. were actually white. in those days, would assume that maybe. there was some ethnicity there. And that their prejudice might. lead them to. think that maybe he could actually be. that stupid because of their own innate. prejudice. >> Yeah. >> You know, but no, you know, I never wore.

any makeup. There was no. He never spoke about his ethnicity to. them as well. Other than later on, there were a couple. of times where he said, "Is it cuz I was. black?". >> Yes. >> To our own Andy Rooney. >> To Andy Rooney. >> And And I remember Andy Rooney saying, "Who's black?". >> Yeah, exactly. Well, because I'm not. wearing makeup. I'm clearly this one guy. in the room. >> Yeah. >> The catchphrase, "Is it cuz I was. black?". sort of spread like wildfire through. England. And it was completely impromptu. I was.

in this show called The 11 O'Clock Show. And I went to an environmental protest. And I jumped the barricades. There were. police there trying to stop these. environmental protesters. They're stopping this construction going. on. And this policeman stops me and I. said, "Is it cuz I was black?" And we. played it out that night to the audience. and they themselves. Why? And this is my own sort of theory on. comedy, right? So,

which is the brain expects. a certain line when you're saying a. sentence. So, when they hear the words, "Is it cuz. I is?" they would expect white, tall, a. man, wearing a yellow suit. The thing that. they're least expecting the audience is. black. The brain suddenly has to go from. there. It hears something over here. And that distance. makes them laugh.

>> I can't waste my time, hm? >> Is it cuz I was black? >> You're black? Who's. Huh? Who's black? >> Your eyes. >> [snorts]. >> No, I don't want to do this anymore. I. don't I don't know I don't I don't have. time. >> Do you remember a moment when you. approach some skateboarders as Ali G and. they believed you were him? >> Yes. >> describe that to me? And was that a kind. of breakthrough moment for you with this. character? >> Yeah. So, it was a breakthrough moment. for me in my entire career, in my life.

So, I wanted to be a comedian, but I was embarrassed to tell anyone. that I wanted to be a comedian. because it's a bit like saying, "I want. to be a supermodel." You know, then. people go, "Well, you're not actually. very good-looking, so you That's the. It's a secret. So, exactly. No one knows. this. I was hosting a show called F2F, but I wanted to be a comedian, so I had. this idea. that in the breaks, you know, the. 1-minute breaks get from this part of. the studio to that part of the studio, we would cut to. me doing a character. So, I came up with.

this character called MC Jocelyn. Cheedle-Hume. >> Yo, what's up, homie? This is MC Jocelyn. Cheedle-Hume making it real. >> He was this upper-class kid. who did all the same catchphrases as Ali. G. Booyakasha. But he was upper-class, so he was booyakasha you know, junglist. massive. And I start skateboarding. terribly and they go, "You're You're. crap, man. You're wack." After about 5. minutes, I went back to my real voice. I. said, "Guys, I'm.

pretending. This is a It's a character.". They were shocked. At the end of the hour, I get called by. the head. boss. >> Mhm. >> He says, "If you try that again, you're. fired.". >> Oh, wow. >> And then I knew I was onto something. So, the core idea of Ali G was I thought. would it be funny. to have. the world expert in something with the. biggest idiot in the world. >> Mhm. >> You know, would that juxtaposition be. really funny.

>> Mhm. >> if the world expert takes it seriously. >> Right. And apparently, yes. >> Boom boom shake the. >> When you called C. Everett Koop, the. Surgeon General, a player hater cuz he. told you that you would definitely die. at some point. Can you tell me what you. remember about that interview? >> It was a fantastic interview. You know. what I remember most clearly? >> Huh. >> Which is great for every interviewer out. there. I kept on telling him these. stupid questions like, you know, ain't the heart a bit. crap, you know, don't shouldn't it have.

a different rhythm cuz at the moment. boom boom boom boom, but what about a. Then they would look after it and go, "Yo, this is me heart. Respect it.". >> No, you're way off base there. >> So, you start doing Ali G and. people immediately are responsive. >> Yeah. >> But the thing I find this so. fascinating, the thing that makes him. and you a household name is this. controversy that erupts in the British. press about whether Ali G is a racist.

creation. Can you take me through the. arguments on both sides of that and what. you made of it? >> Okay, so. at this point for the first. five, six, seven years of my fame I. didn't give any interviews. >> Uh-huh. >> So, I never explained who Ali G was. Why? >> Because. I didn't want to get into an interview. situation. The person would go, "Wait a.

minute. I saw you give an interview. You're. >> Right. >> You're this Cambridge-educated, middle-class, Jewish guy.". >> Right. >> I wanted to do everything so that I. could carry on doing Ali G. And secretly. I wanted to do Borat as well. So, as a result, all the imagery for Ali. G, all the posters was me covering my. face or just really close-up stuff so. that no one would recognize me. It was an amazing time because. I became very famous, but nobody knew. what I looked like. So, I would be on.

the tube, the underground, hearing. people talk about Ali G. They'd be. sitting next to me. >> Did it upset you to think that there was. a contingent of society that thought you. were part of. something racist? Or you Or did you just know they were. wrong so you weren't worried? >> It was the worst insult you could give. me. And so, I was kind of desperate to. go, "Guys, I want to terrorize." And the. rest of the team were like, "Just stay in character. Just do the. show.". >> Mhm. >> So, I mean, it's interesting. That's. also It's interesting to clear these.

things up. Now, some people won't be. convinced. Everyone's entitled to their. own opinion. I can only really explain how I came up. with the character and what it how it. was intended. >> Yeah. >> And how what his influences were, you. know. This is the other thing about the. beginning of the Ali G thing. So, this was the first time people had. seen a character with real people. >> Right. >> So, I understand the criticism at the. time because it's hard to conceive that. this is a guy playing a character. because no one was playing a character. with real people. This is a new form of.

comedy. This was the undercover. character comedy that I had tried to. pitch. >> Yes. >> So, obviously, thinking back at it now, you'd go, "Oh, that is Sacha Baron. Cohen." You know, Sacha Baron Cohen is. this guy who's, you know, taking these phrases from. rappers and, you know, reggae stars, and. that's not okay. They didn't realize, I. think, that I was a guy playing this. white idiot. >> Well, cuz you'd created something new. >> Yeah, it was something new. And so, when.

you create something new, it can either. fail and it can be misinterpreted, and it can work. >> Okay. We talked a little bit about the origins. of Borat. Um tell me what's going on for you when. you decide to make. Cultural Learnings of America for Make. Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan. >> I went to America. And I had a meet with Jim Brooks, you. know, who created The Simpsons,

Taxi, legend. So, I spent a couple of. hours with him. for uh kind of 4 days in a row. And we kind of worked out how to do a. sort of narrative structure with Borat. >> Mhm. >> And. you know, that was the dilemma. You. know, was Borat going to be a scripted. comedy and I was working with Matt and. Trey from South Park. They came up with. a brilliant scripted thing. The three of. us were working on this plot. And it was Bill Friedkin.

who I had dinner with. uh this legendary director and he said, "You've got to make it in the real. world. You have to do the core thing.". >> Hello. Thank you. Um. we are actually live on the air right. now. >> I am very excite. >> Yes. It's an exciting. >> Hello you guys. Hello. >> Yes. >> Hello you guys. Hello. I am very. excited. >> So when you're making Borat, obviously. you meticulously. plan ahead and you know, it's not like.

you and your merry band of producers is. just going into antique stores. >> And there's a huge amount of stuff that. you don't see, which is us behind the. scenes looking at who we will interview. and going. they not them, not them. >> Who is this lady you have shrunk? Was she the owner of this house that you. camped in front of? >> There's a couple more. >> And so the experiment was we went into.

Fox. and I said, "You know, this is going to. be a movie where real people. move the narrative forward. and they are actually they are unaware. they're in a movie." Now obviously I. didn't believe that it would happen. I. just thought, you know, I'm just going. to say it. So they said, "All right, try. it out." You know, here's the money. It's $14 million. And the first thing came about and it. was Borat buying a car. You know, I want. the wagon, you know. And they go, "Well, it's not exactly.

like that." And this guy says, "Well, we. don't have that, but we Sorry, my. accent's awful. But we do have this.". And he points to an ice cream truck. And so I I knew I was like, "Oh, this is. a bit in the movie where. Borat comes into the movie this scene. wanting that, and the real person shifts. the story into something else." I was. like, "Oh, wow, the theory works.". You know, Borat is, again, funny.

character, but also to. He also shows the kindness of people as. well, who are so nice to him, >> Mhm. >> but also can expose, you know, the layer. of hate and bigotry below the surface. that people normally wouldn't go on air. and. and show. >> Come on and make my day, Jew. >> I guess what I wonder is, have you felt. conflicted or guilty about.

beating someone into making a complete. fool of themselves? >> Okay, well, I think a lot of the times. they're not making fools of themselves. Uh I think a lot of those, in the Ali G. interviews, they come across well, actually. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh I think it's the same with Borat. We would often shoot in places that were. famous for civil rights abuses. We'd go. to Little Rock, Arkansas. Um. we would, you know, we would go to. Atlanta. We would go to places where.

we felt we would find the kind of people. whose views that we didn't. agree with. >> Wawa, I'm Bruno. >> Do you think it's fair to say that that. what you're doing throughout all of your. undercover work is you're putting these. people through moral tests, and the more. spectacularly they fail them, the better it is for the movie, right? >> I think it's a variety. I think all the. characters work in different ways. Bruno. exposes homophobia.

Um. >> And people respond to him differently. >> Yes. >> than any of the other characters, right? >> Yes, so they all respond to all They're. all designed to expose something. So, Bruno is also about the vacuousness of. the fashion world, you know, and. the absurdity of him getting people to. contradict themselves. Ours is this is. him. This is Al. So, Bruno, I play this gay Austrian. flamboyant fashion reporter. And. we wanted to show.

that homophobia could turn violent very. easily. And at that point, we made it in. 2009, it was almost in the last acceptable. form of prejudice. These movies tend to be in genres, so I. wanted to make it a rom-com. What. normally happens at a rom-com? The guy and the girl, he proposes to her. in the big match, they kiss, and. everyone cheers. Instead of that, we did it in a cage. match.

That is me and my love interest, and we. kiss. And we wanted to see what would. happen with the crowd. Would they become. violent, really? >> No, it seemed like they wanted to kill. you. >> Yes. >> What's the sort of ratio of fear to. thrill for you while that's happening? How much are you worried about dying, and how much are you thinking, "Oh my. god, this is going to be the best. scene"? >> I'm thinking about the scene almost. entirely in that moment. I mean, I can remember it vividly now. Yeah, I remember Well, I remember lying. down, and I'm kissing him, and I'm.

looking at the chairs. And I'm thinking, "This is great.". >> Let's talk about the new movie for a. minute. So, after however many years of. inhabiting Ali G, you step away from him. for a long time, and now after 20 years. of chilling, talking, and boning, Ali G. is back. >> Yeah. >> A movie you directed called Who Is I. What has aging a couple of decades done. to this guy? >> Absolutely nothing. >> Huh. >> So, he is He's the control experiment. So, we brought him back to see how society.

had changed, really. So, he is. unchanged. >> These immigrants are not coming here to. mow your lawn, trim your trees, rake. your leaves, clean your house. >> Did you go into this movie with any kind. of question you wanted to answer? >> Yes. I mean, number one, I wanted the. people to. laugh. really, really hard. And I wanted to. also just examine this idea of. conspiracies and lies, whether we, in a matter of hours, could.

turn intelligent people who believed in. the theory of race replacement into. murderers. Doesn't sound that funny. There's loads. of laughs in the movie, as well. Big up myself. Sorry. You know, back in the day, when I. did the Ali G show, you know, we had a song called Throw the. Jew Down the Well, and I had to do it. twice to get an audience to sing along. And at that point, it was a great.

revelation, and people were shocked, and. isn't this outrageous that these people. were indifferent to anti-Semitism? >> Mhm. And you're saying you had to do it. twice, cuz the first group you were in. front of wasn't indifferent. >> No, they weren't. They chased me down. It was in Nashville, Tennessee, and they. chased me down the street. >> And and just for anyone who hasn't seen. it, for like the two people who haven't. seen it, describe what happens the. second time. >> The second time I sing it, it's Throw. the Jew Down the Well, and I'm this. country and western star from. Kazakhstan, and people are singing Throw the Jew. Down the Well, and I go, Some of my. country can't be free. Some of my.

country can't be free. You must grab him. by his horns. You must grab him by his. horns. Then we have a big party. And it's that kind of thing. So, it was. seen as shocking at the time. The head. of the ADL came out against me. Um, it's inciting anti-Semitism. I felt it was revealing a kind of. underbelly of. acceptance of anti-Semitism, rather than. people being anti-Semitic. >> Or indifference. >> Yeah. So, I I quoted this historian of. the Holocaust called Kershaw, who said. that the path to Auschwitz was paved.

with indifference. Then a couple of years later, well, then. many years later, I'm doing this. character, Dr. Myra Cane in Diggerchelo. I'm in Kingman, Arizona, and I pitched. this idea of a megamosque. The idea was. to show latent Islamophobia. And I said at one point, I go, "You. know, you're coming off as a little bit. racist." And a guy in the audience says, "I am racist. I am racist against Muslims.". And it was shocking. We put it out. But. at that point, to have somebody on.

camera admit that they were racist, was. shocking. Now, it's commonplace, and these. horrible beliefs are out in the open. They're on social media. People are. saying them out loud and proudly. >> Yeah. >> And so, what's the effect of that? What's the effect of this society where. political violence is seen as legitimate. by the hard right and by the hard left. as well, which is a new thing.

And. my thing is saying, are we heading. somewhere where. intelligent people who are fed. conspiracy theories could carry out. heinous acts? >> Do you feel like you're holding up a. mirror to society, plain and simple? Or. is it like a like a weird, warped. funhouse mirror that gives us a. distorted perspective of how scary. things actually are? >> Again, the primary objective of all of. this is to get people to laugh really.

hard. Um. and smuggled in there is a bit of. satire. It's a bit of hopefully people. come out of the movie theater and think. >> Last year, me Julie went to Lithuania. >> It's an incredibly unique career you. have. Not only that you've invented a. genre, and that you keep doing it, but. that you're also able to do serious. roles, and you have a sideline as a. screenwriter. Like there's I can't think. of another person who has a career like. that. >> Okay, back and it's interesting. Well,

I'm this kid who probably should have. been a fairly successful. you know, lawyer and it's just a bizarre. journey that I ended up. doing this. You know, my dream was. could I make one classic comedy? And I felt like with Borat I was like, I. did it. You know, so anything else is. is really gravy and. yeah, I feel very, very lucky. >> Wow.

King in the castle, king in the castle.